SSJ Zenkai yes or no? - Page 15

SRP76 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

The Kiri can quite easily be ignored. It has one application in the series and as such we can't compare it to any others. It isn't a fair test.

Nothing in the manga can be ignored, especially when so many other things in the manga support it. If it was to be ignored, it would have never been written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Not sure how you got SSJ3 at that number.

Simple. By even giving people the minimum power differences we see through the fights, Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell saga has to be at least around 4 billion (Buu saga wouold be much more). That puts his base at 3,850,000,000. Each Super Saiyan transformation gives 150,000,000 increase. Three of them. Total of 450,000,000 increase from base to Super Saiyan 3. Total of 4,300,000,000 for Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

4,300,000,000 / 3,850,000,000 = 1.1168

Super Saiyan 3 = 1.1168x base.

Obviously, this can simply not be.

Madness · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRP76

Simple. By even giving people the minimum power differences we see through the fights, Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell saga has to be at least around 4 billion (Buu saga wouold be much more). That puts his base at 3,850,000,000. Each Super Saiyan transformation gives 150,000,000 increase. Three of them. Total of 450,000,000 increase from base to Super Saiyan 3. Total of 4,300,000,000 for Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

4,300,000,000 / 3,850,000,000 = 1.1168

Super Saiyan 3 = 1.1168x base.

Obviously, this can simply not be.

Minimum power differences...? And what would those be?

Kaio · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant Lustoid 2

[...]The people arguing for a decreasing multiplier are ignoring the entire point of having a multiplier in the first place.

How so?

Vagrant Lustoid 2 · 05-13-2008

Far as I can tell, the whole point of having a multiplier is to have a reliable and simple way of calculating power levels for a PL list. Like if the multiplier is always 10x, you just add a 0 to the base power.

Fact is, if you're incorporating decreasing multipliers, you're simply making arbitrary guesses at the amount of power you feel is suitable and putting that PL there. Having decreasing multipliers denies the entire point of having a multiplier in my eyes, as you're arbitrarily deciding how much those multipliers should decrease by at any given time to fit your PL list. At least SRP76 is arguing for a constant multiplier of 3x.

Madness · 05-13-2008

And a constant multiplier of anything below 20x is a bit silly really, considering Kaioken.

uki1234 · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

And a constant multiplier of anything below 20x is a bit silly really, considering Kaioken.

You should be more accurate:

"considering something that doesn't exist after the first SS transformation."

Madness · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

You should be more accurate:

"considering something that was surpassed by the first SSJ transformation."

Fixed.

Kai Hiwatari · 05-13-2008

Lol, owned.

Seriously though, I doubt there's a zenkai after the Saiyan reaches SSJ. Just doesn't appear present to me.

uki1234 · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Fixed.

First of all, don't change my quote cos I consider it rude, and it sucks. Ok?

What you don't realise is that the stronger the fighter is the higher kaioken he can do. This has been proven, since for instance king kai couldn't do regular kaioken since his lack of power. So, in fact kaioken would far surpass 50x increase in base, following how much has Goku's base power increased then by your reasoning Goku shouldn't use SSJ and MSSJ since kaioken surpassed them. So that alone proves you wrong.

There are other factors that support the fact that kaioken ceased to exist after Goku turned SS. For example why in the world didn't Yamcha, Tien, Chaozu use kaioken technique if it still existed, and we know that they knew about kaioken at the time Goku was doing kaioken 10x and 20x???

Besides, I think you are one of those guys who support that multiplier never decreases, and I do that as well. Then wouldn't it be silly to think that the first multiplier was 50x if kiri metar showed it to be far less than 50x? Not to mention that Goku was proved to have his base power a lot increased since the beginning of the Frieza fight

So all factors give us simple explanation that kaioken simply ceased to exist like tails and zenkai after Goku turned SS, since Akira decided to leave it behind. Is it so hard to comprehend it?

Devilz · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Kiwatari

I doubt there's a zenkai after the Saiyan reaches SSJ.

There can be zenkai anywhere if a plot demands it. SSJ Future Trunks and Perfect Cell receive one.

Madness · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

First of all, don't change my quote cos I consider it rude, and it sucks. Ok?

What you don't realise is that the stronger the fighter is the higher kaioken he can do. This has been proven, since for instance king kai couldn't do regular kaioken since his lack of power. So, in fact kaioken would far surpass 50x increase in base, following how much has Goku's base power increased then by your reasoning Goku shouldn't use SSJ and MSSJ since kaioken surpassed them. So that alone proves you wrong.

There are other factors that support the fact that kaioken ceased to exist after Goku turned SS. For example why in the world didn't Yamcha, Tien, Chaozu use kaioken technique if it still existed, and we know that they knew about kaioken at the time Goku was doing kaioken 10x and 20x???

Besides, I think you are one of those guys who support that multiplier never decreases, and I do that as well. Then wouldn't it be silly to think that the first multiplier was 50x if kiri metar showed it to be far less than 50x? Not to mention that Goku was proved to have his base power a lot increased since the beginning of the Frieza fight

So all factors give us simple explanation that kaioken simply ceased to exist like tails and zenkai after Goku turned SS, since Akira decided to leave it behind. Is it so hard to comprehend it?

lol, I'm not changing that quote. Take that metal pole outta your arse and loosen up a bit.

The multiplier never changed, and the Daizenshuu never showed a power level for Goku after the Freeza fight, but pre-transformation, so I believe it never happened.

Sadly, the only thing that you've proved is that you will not move from your position, no matter how much evidence I, and a lot of other people throw at you.

Farewell. It was a nice idea, but it doesn't hold up well.

uki1234 · 05-13-2008

I cant help but to laugh at your "evidences".

Anyway I'm done arguing with you since you are an unchangeable dunce.

Madness · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

I cant help but to laugh at your "evidences".

Anyway I'm done arguing with you since you are an unchangeable dunce.

I provided lots of evidence which you ignored. Anyone reading this will be able to see who the dunce is. Nobody is gonna swallow your "THE KAIOKEN WUZ FORGOTTEN KK! LOLZ" excuse. Everyone knows better than that. Unless Super Saiyan surpassed Kaioken Goku wouldn't have used it.

Tien, Krillin and Yamcha don't learn it because they can't. King Kai speaks about Goku as being special when he learns it. And nothing says that the Kaioken goes up as people grow in strength. Just that Goku had gained more tolerance to it. And it was dangerous doing it too.

uki1234 · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

I provided lots of evidence which you ignored. Anyone reading this will be able to see who the dunce is. Nobody is gonna swallow your "THE KAIOKEN WUZ FORGOTTEN KK! LOLZ" excuse. Everyone knows better than that. Unless Super Saiyan surpassed Kaioken Goku wouldn't have used it.

Tien, Krillin and Yamcha don't learn it because they can't. King Kai speaks about Goku as being special when he learns it. And nothing says that the Kaioken goes up as people grow in strength. Just that Goku had gained more tolerance to it. And it was dangerous doing it too.

"about Goku as being special"

Someone with PL of 8200 in that time was really special, and this has already been disproved, since King Kai wasn't able to master it cos his lack of power.

"Just that Goku had gained more tolerance to it"

I don't know if this is more sad, than funny.

Madness · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

"about Goku as being special"

Someone with PL of 8200 in that time was really special, and this has already been disproved, since King Kai wasn't able to master it cos his lack of power.

"Just that Goku had gained more tolerance to it"

I don't know if this is more sad, than funny.

Meh, either way, noone tried to learn it. Why are you so dependent on power anyway? Goku was always doing things that noone else tried to do. Like drinking the Special Water at Karin's. Noone else did that. Why? Who knows. Goku is a trailblazer.

Anyway, Super Saiyan was more powerful than Kaiokenx20. How do I know this? Because Toriyama said so. he said so by making it the ultimate thing in the series so far. It was the best at the time. End of. Arguement over. YOU LOSE.

05-13-2008	#214 (permalink)
Vagrant Lustoid 2 (13) Great Ape Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 272 Rep Power: 2	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? Far as I can tell, the whole point of having a multiplier is to have a reliable and simple way of calculating power levels for a PL list. Like if the multiplier is always 10x, you just add a 0 to the base power. Fact is, if you're incorporating decreasing multipliers, you're simply making arbitrary guesses at the amount of power you feel is suitable and putting that PL there. Having decreasing multipliers denies the entire point of having a multiplier in my eyes, as you're arbitrarily deciding how much those multipliers should decrease by at any given time to fit your PL list. At least SRP76 is arguing for a constant multiplier of 3x.

05-13-2008	#215 (permalink)
Madness Commander Madness (29) King of Soul Society Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Seeing how long I can make this entry, simply for lol reasons. Maybe I can make it stretch to the o- Posts: 8,540 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 117	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? And a constant multiplier of anything below 20x is a bit silly really, considering Kaioken. __________________

05-13-2008	#218 (permalink)
Kai Hiwatari (19) Mastered Super Saiyan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: PyroVille Posts: 1,007 Rep Power: 12	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? Lol, owned. Seriously though, I doubt there's a zenkai after the Saiyan reaches SSJ. Just doesn't appear present to me. __________________ Free Flash Games Ve haf vays of making you speak viz ze German accent, ja????

05-13-2008	#222 (permalink)
uki1234 (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 1,205 Rep Power: 11	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? I cant help but to laugh at your "evidences". Anyway I'm done arguing with you since you are an unchangeable dunce.