SSJ Zenkai yes or no? - Page 14

SRP76 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant Lustoid 2

It's clearly not. Because his working on MSSJ made him stronger than his ASSJ or USSJ forms, which we know do increase his power.

Training and constant sparring against another Super Saiyan in 10G increased his power, not staying Super Saiyan all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant Lustoid 2

Additionally, it's stated that he becomes stronger through mastering the form because he has extra chi not used from transforming.

No, it isn't. It's stated that the reduced strain on their bodies will help their stamina. That's ALL that's said. No power increase.

Vagrant Lustoid 2 · 05-12-2008

If that's the case, then why did Vegeta and Trunks not gain substantial increases of the same sort? Gohan and Trunk should have received far bigger powerups, having not trained in 10G before, whereas to Goku and Vegeta by now that level of Gs would be insignificant.

I'm interested in how much power you subscribe to all these characters. As a reasonable assumption, let's assume that their basic forms got at least 3x stronger than before. Now then... it seems suitable to assume that Vegeta's ASSJ increased the power of the SSJ by 1.5x, resulting in a total multiplier of 4.5x. But according to you, Goku's multiplier remained at 3x. Yet as an MSSJ by Karin's reckoning he was at the very least 2x stronger than Vegeta.

Going right back to the beginning, let's start with simple numbers for their bases. Since it's a popular assumption that Vegeta was slightly stronger than Goku, we'll go with 1000 and 950 as demonstration bases. This puts them at 3000 (Vegeta) and 2850 (Goku) as SSJ in the Android saga. Now, I made an assumption that Vegeta got a base increase of 3x while in the CoSaT, resulting in his base being 3000, his SSJ being 9000 and his ASSJ being 13,500. This certainly seems a reasonable increase in strength comparative to what he actually displayed through those sagas.

Here's where the MSSJ is still just SSJ theory gets sticky. We know for a fact that MSSJ Goku should be at the very least 2x Vegeta's strength, making him at least 27,000. Now, with the standard 3x multiplier, that makes his base 9,000. That means his base is at least 3x the strength of Vegeta's. And with his slightly lower base initially, this means his power rose by 9.1x in the CoSaT as opposed to Vegeta's 3x.

Why is this? Both have done extensive gravity training, so it shouldn't be that he's gaining more benefit from the Gs. Was it training with Gohan? Consider that for much of the time he was actually working on getting Gohan to SSJ and then mastering the form, I doubt it. Thus the evidence lends itself to the fact that the MSSJ form actually does increase your strength significantly, and that is always how I've seen it displayed and viewed by most people. Hence why many people argue over whether Goten and Trunks were MSSJ or not, or whether they were all MSSJ when fighting Broly, or yadayada. It's not because of extra stamina, but because the regular perception is that MSSJ provides far more power.

SRP76 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant Lustoid 2

If that's the case, then why did Vegeta and Trunks not gain substantial increases of the same sort? Gohan and Trunk should have received far bigger powerups, having not trained in 10G before, whereas to Goku and Vegeta by now that level of Gs would be insignificant.

What do you mean? Everybody got huge powerups. They all went from far weaker than the Androids to far stronger than even Stage Two Cell.

And not everybody gains as much power as Goku and Gohan. In fact, from the beginning of DragonBall, Goku is almost always shown to get far larger increases than anybody else. People like Trunks and Vegeta can never hope to catch him.

Vagrant Lustoid 2 · 05-12-2008

And yet Vegeta did catch him momentarily during the Android saga, which is exactly where the base starts of from for CoSaT training. I see no reason to assume that goku gains power at a rate 3x that of Vegeta for the most part.

uki1234 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant Lustoid 2

And yet Vegeta did catch him momentarily during the Android saga

Obviously cos Vegeta trained like madman in 300g, while Goku was training in 1g and probably with much less intensity than Vegeta, since other factors like chi chi.

gad_is_here · 05-12-2008

Goku has been repeatedly shown to have had the best results of his training. Vegeta and Trunks can't come close to him in that aspect

uki1234 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

Goku has been repeatedly shown to have had the best results of his training. Vegeta and Trunks can't come close to him in that aspect

Nope I think that the biggest power up ever has Piccolo in Android saga :P.

gad_is_here · 05-12-2008

If you consider fusions, then it has got to be Piccolo in the Frieza saga. From below 10,000 to over a million

uki1234 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

If you consider fusions, then it has got to be Piccolo in the Frieza saga. From below 10,000 to over a million

You spoke of training power ups, so I was refering to training power up Piccolo got from Trunks till Android saga.

gad_is_here · 05-12-2008

But still, if you take the results shown over all, Goku wins. I'm not talking of any particular situation

uki1234 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

But still, if you take the results shown over all, Goku wins. I'm not talking of any particular situation

Overall yes.

gad_is_here · 05-12-2008

We agreed

btw. What's going on in tv.com. I don't feel like posting in the forums there somehow

uki1234 · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

We agreed

btw. What's going on in tv.com. I don't feel like posting in the forums there somehow

Its going to snow in India now :P

Dunno, as soon as they started discussing kid buu vs super buu for 100 time, I got really bored.

gad_is_here · 05-12-2008

lol. I think 23 really was succesful in his mission for kiddy fanboys

And yeah. It's snowing

Madness · 05-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRP76

Yes, it does, because no matter HOW you try to work the reading, you get Super Saiyan NOT giving an "additive increase". The only way it would work for that is if lower Kiri meant more power. And it clearly doesn't, since Super Saiyan isn't lower than base.

And it's more than "just the Kiri meter", as I pointed out repeatedly. When all these things line up, it isn't just a coincidence. You can't dance around everything at once.

And one last jab at poor Madness:

I worked out the numbers for "The Additive Theory". We get Super Saiyan 3 being 1.1125x base.

Pretty sure it's a LOT more than that.

And "Mastered" Super Saiyan is no different from regular Super Saiyan. All it is is Super Saiyan. No extra power, no nothing.

Not sure how you got SSJ3 at that number.

The Kiri can quite easily be ignored. It has one application in the series and as such we can't compare it to any others. It isn't a fair test.

05-12-2008	#197 (permalink)
Vagrant Lustoid 2 (13) Great Ape Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 272 Rep Power: 2	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? If that's the case, then why did Vegeta and Trunks not gain substantial increases of the same sort? Gohan and Trunk should have received far bigger powerups, having not trained in 10G before, whereas to Goku and Vegeta by now that level of Gs would be insignificant. I'm interested in how much power you subscribe to all these characters. As a reasonable assumption, let's assume that their basic forms got at least 3x stronger than before. Now then... it seems suitable to assume that Vegeta's ASSJ increased the power of the SSJ by 1.5x, resulting in a total multiplier of 4.5x. But according to you, Goku's multiplier remained at 3x. Yet as an MSSJ by Karin's reckoning he was at the very least 2x stronger than Vegeta. Going right back to the beginning, let's start with simple numbers for their bases. Since it's a popular assumption that Vegeta was slightly stronger than Goku, we'll go with 1000 and 950 as demonstration bases. This puts them at 3000 (Vegeta) and 2850 (Goku) as SSJ in the Android saga. Now, I made an assumption that Vegeta got a base increase of 3x while in the CoSaT, resulting in his base being 3000, his SSJ being 9000 and his ASSJ being 13,500. This certainly seems a reasonable increase in strength comparative to what he actually displayed through those sagas. Here's where the MSSJ is still just SSJ theory gets sticky. We know for a fact that MSSJ Goku should be at the very least 2x Vegeta's strength, making him at least 27,000. Now, with the standard 3x multiplier, that makes his base 9,000. That means his base is at least 3x the strength of Vegeta's. And with his slightly lower base initially, this means his power rose by 9.1x in the CoSaT as opposed to Vegeta's 3x. Why is this? Both have done extensive gravity training, so it shouldn't be that he's gaining more benefit from the Gs. Was it training with Gohan? Consider that for much of the time he was actually working on getting Gohan to SSJ and then mastering the form, I doubt it. Thus the evidence lends itself to the fact that the MSSJ form actually does increase your strength significantly, and that is always how I've seen it displayed and viewed by most people. Hence why many people argue over whether Goten and Trunks were MSSJ or not, or whether they were all MSSJ when fighting Broly, or yadayada. It's not because of extra stamina, but because the regular perception is that MSSJ provides far more power.

05-12-2008	#199 (permalink)
Vagrant Lustoid 2 (13) Great Ape Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 272 Rep Power: 2	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? And yet Vegeta did catch him momentarily during the Android saga, which is exactly where the base starts of from for CoSaT training. I see no reason to assume that goku gains power at a rate 3x that of Vegeta for the most part.

05-12-2008	#201 (permalink)
gad_is_here (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,507 Blog Entries: 7 Rep Power: 77	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? Goku has been repeatedly shown to have had the best results of his training. Vegeta and Trunks can't come close to him in that aspect __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

05-12-2008	#203 (permalink)
gad_is_here (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,507 Blog Entries: 7 Rep Power: 77	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? If you consider fusions, then it has got to be Piccolo in the Frieza saga. From below 10,000 to over a million __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

05-12-2008	#205 (permalink)
gad_is_here (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,507 Blog Entries: 7 Rep Power: 77	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? But still, if you take the results shown over all, Goku wins. I'm not talking of any particular situation __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

05-12-2008	#207 (permalink)
gad_is_here (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,507 Blog Entries: 7 Rep Power: 77	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? We agreed btw. What's going on in tv.com. I don't feel like posting in the forums there somehow __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

05-12-2008	#209 (permalink)
gad_is_here (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,507 Blog Entries: 7 Rep Power: 77	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? lol. I think 23 really was succesful in his mission for kiddy fanboys And yeah. It's snowing __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.