SRP76

Yes, exactly. If Goku's at 50 million, and Frieza's at about 80 million, then Frieza has a 1.6x advantage, making this feat incredible, and "lucky".

Before this, Goku was at 3 million (up to maybe 33 million with Kaioken x 10), and Frieza was at 60 million. Frieza had a 1.81x advantage, which is MORE than later on. That's why a Kaiokened-up Goku couldn't "work a miracle" like this before.

I won't even go into how a 33-million Goku would be at an even greater disadvantage against the 80-million Frieza, thus making it impossible for him to not have become stronger....

And I don't recall seeing the 20x Kaioken having no aura. It was huge and intense, actually.

uki1234

Aura is always shown. Here is kaioken 10x aura, at time when he uses it.

SRP76

This whole thing keeps coming around to "maybe he did a Kaioken".

But does "The Kaioken Theory" explain everything that comes after? No, it doesn't. And that's the main point: "why are the Super Saiyan forms nowhere near 50x the base levels later on?".

All the things we see, from the power increase from Fat Buu to Super Buu, to Babidi's reading of Goku's energy, to Trunks' and Goten's fight with Android 18, and Vegeta's interaction among that, ALL suggest that Super Saiyan is only around 3x the base level.

And Kaioken can't explain that; Trunks, Goten, and the rest can't even do Kaioken.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

Well, hey. An additive theory manages fine with them. ;P

And then you have the same problem because a Zenkai theory can't explain why he didn't use that instead of a SSJ form if he can comfortably and pretty safely use 10x when the SSJ multiplier is only 3x.

SRP76

There's a billion things that fly against that "if they can do something, why didn't they?" question.

For instance:

You can't explain why they didn't summon Shenron three times and just wish for immortality for Piccolo, Goku, and Vegeta before the Androids arrived, either. Doesn't mean they didn't choose to do something other than that.

And numerous people have given multiple reasons why Kaioken might never have been used again.

And the "Additive Theory" doesn't work - AT ALL.

Here's why:

Goku fights Yakon in base. He has the advantage. Yakon is read (stated) at 800. Goku goes Super Saiyan. He is read (stated) at 3,000.

3,000/800 = 3.75 For simplicity's sake (and since Goku was winning), we can estimate his base at 1,000. Super Saiyan is then 3x base.

Here's where the "Additive Theory" goes completely nuts-up:

If you're "adding" 150,000,000 for Super Saiyan (and that's giving the benefit of the doubt; it can NOT be this high, but it's a nice round number), and the sum of base + this additive comes out to 3x base, we get this equation:

x + 150,000,000 = 3x

or,

x + 150,000,000 = x + x + x

We subtract x from both sides:

150,000,000 = x + x

or,

2x = 150,000,000

Divide each side by 2:

x = 75,000,000

That means that base Goku (Buu saga) = 75,000,000.

Since we've got the base, AND the additive value, add them up:

Base Goku (75,000,000) + Super Saiyan "Additive" (150,000,000) = Super Saiyan Goku.

Ummmm..........ready to see how this is wrong?

We get Super Saiyan Goku (Buu saga) = 225,000,000.

Ummm, DUH! This can NOT be. He would be weaker than Android 18, for God's sake! That's only 1.5x stronger than he was on Namek....you mean to tell me Complete Cell is only about 60% stronger than Frieza? Oh, HELL NO! Simply adding up his components disproves that right away.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

Absolutely, I agree. But to think that the multiplier for SSJ has been shown to be consistently 3x despite this glaringly obvious point is folly.

I've already stated that yeah, I think he did probably get a small amount of power to his base form from transforming to SSJ, but I remain undecided as to whether it's a Zenkai or not. However, I refuse to believe that the SSJ multiplier, assuming there is one, could be anything less than 10x, and honestly, I don't think it could have been less than 25x.

SRP76

Base Trunks and Goten fight Android 18. They are somewhat even. They go Super Saiyan. Not only can Android 18 see their attack coming, but she can dodge it. That's not a 10x difference, and certainly not 25x.

Babidi reads Yakon at 800, and Goku is fighting evenly, with a small advantage. He goes Super Saiyan. He's read at 3,000. That's not a 10x increase, and certainly not 25x.

Trunks states that after training in the Time Chamber, that he thinks base Gotenks is around Fat Buu in power. We see later that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is around Super Buu in power. So the difference from base to Super Saiyan 3 is about the same as from Fat Buu to Super Buu. When Super Buu transforms, ONLY Piccolo feels it. He chastises Krillin for not sensing the difference. If Buu suddenly got 1,000x stronger, EVERYONE would have felt that. Certainly if he got 15,625x stronger. So, the increase wasn't that large.

Super Saiyan Gotenks fights Super Buu. He gets whipped, but can cause some slight damage, and evade a couple of attacks. Super Buu does NOT show any sign whatsoever of powering up, and then fights Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. They're around the same power. Since Super Saiyan Gotenks performed as he did, Buu was not 100x stronger than he. Certainly not a 625x difference.

Every single thing we see points to Super Saiyan being lower than 10x, and nowhere near 25x, and certainly not even in the same ballpark as 50x.

That's over and over again throughout, consistently.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

That just makes the additive theory seem all the more likely.

__________________


"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Madness

Thank you Chibi; that's exactly what I've been saying all along. The multiplier theory is broken.

Whichever way you look at it, Goku dodging that disc is either pure luck or Freeza's crappiness. There's nowhere you can realistically put Goku's power that would ensure a dodge on Goku's part.

Now for this Kaioken business. Goku was able to handle the 10x after his Zenkai (sorry Chibi), and he could feel his power once he got out of the Rejuvenation Chamber, he even says "it's like it's welling from inside me...!! I thought I'd reached my limit before... but this... this makes even me shudder..."

My point is, Goku could feel his power once he'd recovered. If he'd really had such a huge Zenkai he'd have thought "fuck this Super Saiyan nonsense; Kaioken works better!" and he would've proceeded to smack the tar out of Freeza.

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

This is because you make a single assumption that could be entirely wrong. You assume that the measurement scale on a kiri meter is linear. Who's to say it's not exponential or factorial? There are scales of measurment in the scientific world that operate in much the same way, I believe. With only a single instance of declared measurments from that meter, it's worthless.

Seriously, when you can explain why a 3x multiplier makes more sense than using the Kaio-Ken at a level he knows he can safely and efficiently handle that is much greater, then sure, maybe I'll consider it.

The only reason you protest so greatly is that you're used to large power jumps thanks to the zenkais and techniques of the earlier sagas. But with those eliminated, there's no logical reason for training to accelerate their power levels so quickly.

But I will say one thing, at least you argue for a constant multiplier. The people arguing for a decreasing multiplier are ignoring the entire point of having a multiplier in the first place.

Madness

Lustoid, I think I'm falling in love with you.

Seriously, you're outlining my beliefs in a way that I've not been able to transmit properly.

__________________

SRP76

Then your "Additive Theory" gets broken even harder, because base Goku would be about 2, making Super Saiyan Goku 150,000,002. The higher the increase you make it from 800 to 3000, the lower the base power. And we know he must be much, much higher than that. Simply not possible for him not to be higher.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

Really doesn't matter. Could be logarithmic, fractional. Fact is we do not know and with a single measurment between two unknown power levels, the kiri meter is basically an invalid red herring to such a debate. I'll be honest, I used to be an advocate of a multiplier around 3-5x, but even then I refused to use the kiri meter because it's vague and undefined in its measurment system.

A further problem is that it's never stated to be his maximum power. Given that it's a demonstration, it might not be. But given that he also then overfeeds Yakkon, it could mean that it is his maximum power. Or else that Yakkon is simply much weaker and that a fraction of his power was required to destroy Yakkon.

Or hell, it could be that the measurment is from his MSSJ state. If that is so, then the additive would be much bigger than 150 million, and thus his base would also be much higher, and this would then follow on to mean that Cell was far stronger than 60% more than Freeza. And that shoots down your theory, and enforces the additive one. I argue for none of these points, only that the kiri meter is unreliable and should not be used in serious debate.

Additionally, it's worth noting that the additive system can easily result in high numbers too. Take MSSJ Goku. His 50% demonstration to Karin was arguably stronger than Super Vegeta, whose own ascended form is in turn much stronger than the basic SSJ. As a result we get that full power MSSJ Goku 2x> Super Vegeta > SSJ. As such, reversing it, you get 150,000,000 < 250,000,000 < 500,000,000. Thus, an additive system used with your kiri reading means that he's now three times as powerful, thus 500,000,000 + 500,000,000/2 = 750,000,000. And curiously enough, that makes his base stronger than Freeza. And also means that Cell would have been at least 5x stronger than Freeza. See, kiri can work against you as well.

SRP76

Yes, it does, because no matter HOW you try to work the reading, you get Super Saiyan NOT giving an "additive increase". The only way it would work for that is if lower Kiri meant more power. And it clearly doesn't, since Super Saiyan isn't lower than base.

And it's more than "just the Kiri meter", as I pointed out repeatedly. When all these things line up, it isn't just a coincidence. You can't dance around everything at once.

And one last jab at poor Madness:

I worked out the numbers for "The Additive Theory". We get Super Saiyan 3 being 1.1125x base.

Pretty sure it's a LOT more than that.

And "Mastered" Super Saiyan is no different from regular Super Saiyan. All it is is Super Saiyan. No extra power, no nothing.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

It's clearly not. Because his working on MSSJ made him stronger than his ASSJ or USSJ forms, which we know do increase his power. Additionally, it's stated that he becomes stronger through mastering the form because he has extra chi not used from transforming. I've never actually seen anyone ever say that MSSJ doesn't increase your power more than regular SSJ. I believe that's how it should work, but it's never how it's protrayed as.