SSJ Zenkai yes or no? - Page 10

~~JC#1~~ · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

Kiri meter - The measuring device used by Babi-di to measure Goku and Yakkon's power.

Ofc the power levels are wrong. Goku can't be at 3000. But the difference in % is what matters, and its constant, no matter how much the 1 unit in kiri metar is in real power levels.

"Vegeta's SS multiplier was not as large as others" Why?

Well, I can't remember about in the Buu saga or later on in the Android/Cell saga, but at least when he fought #19 the multiplier was 46 compared to 50. I don't think 50 is correct, but the same ratio and principal applies. I think it is because Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta used 2 separate methods of transforming. Vegeta trained a shitload and then just released all of his emotions and stopped caring about the world all at once. Goku and Trunks were pure hearted and then got amazingly pissed off after watching friends be killed/hurt. I guess each different method causes a different multiplier.

I don't remember Buu and 2nd half Cell sagas' power levels, but I assume that after Vegeta got angry watching Cell blast Trunks after returning from a single cell, he applied the 1st method's elements and increased his multiplier. Venom9808 is the one who said originally (in his youtube video "Proof that Freeza's power level isn't 12,000,000" or whatever he titled it) that Vegeta's multiplier was less than Goku and Trunks' when he fought 19. Where he shows the Freeza saga power level list, you can see that Goku's multiplier is like 50 or something. You'd think it was different being all beat up and stuff, but I guess a zenkai, transformation, and being beat up all equaled out to Goku's multiplier being the same as Trunks' when he fought Freeza.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Unless the percentage is different

Frankly, the Kiri Meter PROVES that the multiplier system doesn't work, so you've shot yourself in the foot there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Because it proves that there isn't a 50 times multiplier.

Now I know people say "the multiplier changed!" but that doesn't make any sense. You can't say it changes because it's been disproved. That's so stupid IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

If the multiplier didn't change, then it would make the bases very weak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Unless there is no multiplier at all!

The Kiri Meter proves it doesn't exist as a principle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

If you're saying that the increase in power is completely random, then you may as well be right

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

You are right. There is only 3x multiplier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Mystic Gohan

Which doesn't make sense with Goku vs. Freeza and disproves the Super Saiyan "Zenkai" even more...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devilz

There's nothing wrong with multipliers decreasing, well technically they don't decrease at all, they just change completely because that's how the storyline goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Well yes, but as a technical theory, they don't work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Mystic Gohan

Then there's nothing wrong with the additive theory, either. Any "mistakes" it creates are simply do to how the storyline went after the Freeza saga. Not that I've actually seen any legitimate mistakes mentioned by any of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

I'm trying to do one, but it's harder than I realised lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Or the fact that he seemed to be "healed" even before the SSJ transformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

You made that up. Vegeta could stand after he got trashed by Ginyu force. Was he healed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

No, but it invalidates what you were saying, as Goku clearly had enough energy to try to continue the fight and to stand up before Kuririn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

What your brain somehow can't comprehend that Goku can't recover from completely injured to battle-ready in matter of seconds. Neither Vegeta could after Ginyu fight cos its impossible. Its called common sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Vegeta was more pummeled then Goku was by the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

I hope you are kidding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

The most glaring problem in your list, which proves your theory is incorrect, is the fact that you have base form Torunkusu over four times as strong as Juuhachigou, though as we clearly see, she had the power advantage over them. They may have surprised her by their strength, but Goten and Torunkusu were still her inferiors by a decent margin while in their base forms.

Just because Gokuu was able to stand up under his own power and narrowly managed to avoid a Ki-enzan that Furiiza clearly made him aware of by shouting doesn't mean that he suddenly received a Zenkai or supports the notion that the Ssj multiplier is only a three fold increase, or supports that it's a static number at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

Yea it is not hard to conveniently evade using picture where it is shown that Goku's more injured than Vegeta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

And then when Piccolo was wounded, he went down along with Kuririn. YET, Goku was the first to stand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

So?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

How are they irrelevant? Number six especially is one of the most relevant points there possibly could be, as for all we know, Furiiza's battle power could have dropped to the point that he was only in the low millions when he threw the ki-enzan, which would have resulted in their power gap being low enough that he could have dodged it without much difficulty.

The speed also is a relevant point, since you have no idea as to how fast it was going, and thus it's very possible that the Ki-enzan wasn't all that fast, resulting in Gokuu being able to dodge most of it.

He remained in his Ssj form afterwards because he had expended vital time in his final tussle with Furiiza, and needed the form's speed to make good his escape.

Your Ssj Torunkusu battle power now is so low that Bejiita wouldn't have had any difficulty in avoiding his volley of punches, but we clearly see that he was having considerable difficulty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Mystic Gohan

You think a person that was just downing could walk easily?

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

Is it so hard to call them Trunks, Vegeta... like everyone else?

"Furiiza's battle power could have dropped to the point that he was only in the low millions when he threw the ki-enzan"

So in whole fight his power decreases from lets say 140,000,000 to about 120,000,000 where he doesn't stand a chance, and then suddenly after a few seconds of STANDING, not fighting his power drops more than 100,000,000. Thats impossible.

Frieza obviously wanted to kill Goku, so it would be not serious to say that disc wasn't heading full speed, and as far as we know, there is no energy attack that goes slower than punch itself.

"and needed the form's speed to make good his escape."

And why would he risk the first time?

"Your Ssj Torunkusu battle power now is so low that Bejiita wouldn't have had any difficulty in avoiding his volley of punches, but we clearly see that he was having considerable difficulty."

Bejiita(lol) obviously wasn't at full power.

Its called element of surprise. Do you really think that Gohan had difficulties in dodging the rocks from Goten, cos he's around his base form?

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

First of all, he wasn't downing, he just had problems with breathing, since he held his breath for long.

So by natural way as soon as he makes like two breaths to recover air he should be able to walk normally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep thought

You've obviously never swam in your life, then.

Who says that Goku wasn't nearly drowning? You, and only you?

I've held my breath under water several times before in a contest, and it sure as hell took more than two breaths for me to "recover air".

Holding my breath underwater for as long as I like to is far different than drowning, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Mystic Gohan

Why are you assuming that he got no water into his lungs? I think that he probably did, that's why he had trouble walking. He had to recover for a bit. And look! A panel or two later, he was fine. So what's your point? He was just fine before he transformed into a Super Saiyan. He just had trouble right after he got out of the water.

Deep thought · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

The Vegeta you shown being closer to sensu, than Goku to SSJ is irrelevant, since the important thing is how close you get to death.

Are you fucking blind? LOOK AT THOSE PICTURES.

Vegeta is bloody and his face looks like a mess, his armor is broken with scratches all over his body, some of them bloody.

Goku has a few scratches and eyes that looks like a drunkards.

Which one's more injured? Hm........

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep thought

Are you fucking blind? LOOK AT THOSE PICTURES.

Vegeta is bloody and his face looks like a mess, his armor is broken with scratches all over his body, some of them bloody.

Goku has a few scratches and eyes that looks like a drunkards.

Which one's more injured? Hm........

Yea, Recomme was far more bloody and armor-less after Vegeta's attack than Goku. WAS he more injured than him lol.

~~JC#1~~ · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

Kiri meter - The measuring device used by Babi-di to measure Goku and Yakkon's power.

Ofc the power levels are wrong. Goku can't be at 3000. But the difference in % is what matters, and its constant, no matter how much the 1 unit in kiri metar is in real power levels.

"Vegeta's SS multiplier was not as large as others" Why?

Well, I can't remember about in the Buu saga or later on in the Android/Cell saga, but at least when he fought #19 the multiplier was 46 compared to 50. I don't think 50 is correct, but the same ratio and principal applies. I think it is because Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta used 2 separate methods of transforming. Vegeta trained a shitload and then just released all of his emotions and stopped caring about the world all at once. Goku and Trunks were pure hearted and then got amazingly pissed off after watching friends be killed/hurt. I guess each different method causes a different multiplier.

I don't remember Buu and 2nd half Cell sagas' power levels, but I assume that after Vegeta got angry watching Cell blast Trunks after returning from a single cell, he applied the 1st method's elements and increased his multiplier. Venom9808 is the one who said originally (in his youtube video "Proof that Freeza's power level isn't 12,000,000" or whatever he titled it) that Vegeta's multiplier was less than Goku and Trunks' when he fought 19. Where he shows the Freeza saga power level list, you can see that Goku's multiplier is like 50 or something. You'd think it was different being all beat up and stuff, but I guess a zenkai, transformation, and being beat up all equaled out to Goku's multiplier being the same as Trunks' when he fought Freeza.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Unless the percentage is different

Frankly, the Kiri Meter PROVES that the multiplier system doesn't work, so you've shot yourself in the foot there.

How does it prove that???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Because it proves that there isn't a 50 times multiplier.

Now I know people say "the multiplier changed!" but that doesn't make any sense. You can't say it changes because it's been disproved. That's so stupid IMHO.

The multiplier never changed. If it is different you've got the wrong form. How does it disprove 50x???

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

If the multiplier didn't change, then it would make the bases very weak

Uuuuuuuummm, compared to SS levels, yeah base is weak, but just because you transform and your power increases 50 times (not that 50 is the correct multiplier, just giving an example) and then next time the multiplier is 45 or 55 (IDK if the multiplier was supposed to increase or decrease) doesn't change the original power. Without transformations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Unless there is no multiplier at all!

The Kiri Meter proves it doesn't exist as a principle.

How's that???

Quote:

Originally Posted by gad_is_here

If you're saying that the increase in power is completely random, then you may as well be right

That could be true, but I don't think uit is necessarily "random" even though it may change from person to person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

You are right. There is only 3x multiplier.

How's that, again???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Mystic Gohan

Which doesn't make sense with Goku vs. Freeza and disproves the Super Saiyan "Zenkai" even more...

...I don't get it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

I'm trying to do one, but it's harder than I realised lol

I'm making one too, trying to exclude ANY wrong power levels, using precise mathematical calculations for each power to be 100% correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

Or the fact that he seemed to be "healed" even before the SSJ transformation.

No he didn't. He was all beat up, then he transformed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

You made that up. Vegeta could stand after he got trashed by Ginyu force. Was he healed?

Later, Goku gave him a senzu bean, so he healed. Why does it matter???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

No, but it invalidates what you were saying, as Goku clearly had enough energy to try to continue the fight and to stand up before Kuririn.

No he didn't, until he went SS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

What your brain somehow can't comprehend that Goku can't recover from completely injured to battle-ready in matter of seconds.

He could recover like that with an SS transformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Vegeta was more pummeled then Goku was by the way.

Yeah, I guess so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

The most glaring problem in your list, which proves your theory is incorrect, is the fact that you have base form Torunkusu over four times as strong as Juuhachigou, though as we clearly see, she had the power advantage over them. They may have surprised her by their strength, but Goten and Torunkusu were still her inferiors by a decent margin while in their base forms.

Just because Gokuu was able to stand up under his own power and narrowly managed to avoid a Ki-enzan that Furiiza clearly made him aware of by shouting doesn't mean that he suddenly received a Zenkai or supports the notion that the Ssj multiplier is only a three fold increase, or supports that it's a static number at all.

who???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

And then when Piccolo was wounded, he went down along with Kuririn. YET, Goku was the first to stand.

He got angry, didn't get wounded yet, and his anger became his power to stand and then an SS form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

How are they irrelevant? Number six especially is one of the most relevant points there possibly could be, as for all we know, Furiiza's battle power could have dropped to the point that he was only in the low millions when he threw the ki-enzan, which would have resulted in their power gap being low enough that he could have dodged it without much difficulty.

The speed also is a relevant point, since you have no idea as to how fast it was going, and thus it's very possible that the Ki-enzan wasn't all that fast, resulting in Gokuu being able to dodge most of it.

He remained in his Ssj form afterwards because he had expended vital time in his final tussle with Furiiza, and needed the form's speed to make good his escape.

Your Ssj Torunkusu battle power now is so low that Bejiita wouldn't have had any difficulty in avoiding his volley of punches, but we clearly see that he was having considerable difficulty.

Who's Bejiita, Ki-enzan, and Torunkusu???

Madness · 05-11-2008

That was a long post. I'm so not going into it D=

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2008

Bejita- Vegeta

Kienzan- Destructo Disk

Torunkusu- Trunks

Juuhachigou- Android #18

Madness · 05-11-2008

The Kiri disproves the multiplier, as it does not show a 50 times increase. This is if we even think they're reliable, which I don't.

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2008

Yeah, the Kiri meter is in no way reliable when it comes to the multiplier decreasing.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC#1

...I don't get it...

If there was a consistent multiplier of 3, then that would mean Super Saiyan Goku in the Freeza saga was only 3 times stronger than base Goku. That totally contradicts the manga.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Mystic Gohan

If there was a consistent multiplier of 3, then that would mean Super Saiyan Goku in the Freeza saga was only 3 times stronger than base Goku. That totally contradicts the manga.

The bolded part is made up.

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2008

That would also make guys like Trunks have powers of 60,000,000 or more in their bases before they use SSJ. That just makes no sense for their bases to be that powerful at that point.

05-11-2008	#140 (permalink)
Madness Commander Madness (29) King of Soul Society Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Seeing how long I can make this entry, simply for lol reasons. Maybe I can make it stretch to the o- Posts: 9,136 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 164	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? That was a long post. I'm so not going into it D= __________________

05-11-2008	#142 (permalink)
Madness Commander Madness (29) King of Soul Society Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Seeing how long I can make this entry, simply for lol reasons. Maybe I can make it stretch to the o- Posts: 9,136 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 164	Re: SSJ Zenkai yes or no? The Kiri disproves the multiplier, as it does not show a 50 times increase. This is if we even think they're reliable, which I don't. __________________