Pober

He's after go out from RoSaT he and Gohan are Mastered Super Saiyan he told that cos he think someghing how accumulate energy, "No he didn't master Super Saiyan inside RoSat as he says: "Maybe... But right now, trying to build up my strength isn't the solution." Meaning he hadn't reached his goal; which was to master the Super Saiyan state." he mean about strenght is nothing without speed...and he do 9 day on free time...
Oka try tomorrow show me proof about Cell 3x Zenkai :) and with he's children...

Senzu_Bean

I already had this discussion with other member, don't remember who was right now. If Goku and Gohan didn't mastered their SSj form in a whole year, nine days wouldn't be enough for them. They are MSSj! There isn't nothing to say the contrary, not to mention Goku showed his (half)power to Karin and was already enormous powerful than SSj 2nd and 3rd Grades.

Kenshyuk

1. It didn't. It was the self-detonation desperate move that did it for him. Chaozu was the weakest out of the entire cadre of fighters, and yet he gave off a big enough explosion that everyone else in the Zet senshi thought he slew Nappa, but would that have otherwise been his maximum power output? No, not really. This is the case with many an occasion where someone "blew himself up" also. Semi-complete Cell with #18 removed couldn't hold a candle to Mastered Super Saiyan Goku, but it killed him and knocked him out of Super Saiyan. Another desperate move from a battle-worn Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta blew Buu to smithereens, but could he have done that after Buu powered up from above SSj2 power twice in getting infuriated? Not really. Even a 1.2 or .3x difference is enough to completely "wtfpwn" someone in DBZ, which I duly noted in this list, and Buu was about twice as strong as Vegeta was at prime condition, so any hope of damaging him with a pedestrian move was minute and nil to none. People don't normally "blow themselves up" unless they're totally outmatched and dire as hell, which was the case here with the Saibaman. Hell, a bomb in #16's body was enough to kill Cell, and we know how many dozens of times stronger Cell is capable of putting out than #16, someone who was only evenly matched with Cell without the Cyborg absorbtions.

2. No, not really. Tenshinhan is rather underpowered in my listings in the regard that other astute pl'ers, namely Legendary and DarkPrince, amongst others, have him in the REALLY high 1,000s or even low 2,000s range, and I just gave him the bare minimum(1.3x) to completely overwhelm the Saibaman of 1,200. It makes perfect, cohesive and coherent sense that he would only need that amount of power, and what you forget is that that "Oozaru" Gohan had no training at the time and was in no way at prime condition to emanate his full power(such as being seriously pissed like he was against Raditz), so even a 1,000 power level for him would be more than enough.

Now that I have that down, fellow posters, remember to stay on topic and avoid going off on wild tangents in brackets and deviating to other subjects, people. This is not a "did Cell get an auto-evolution from being Final Flash'd?" topic. It is not a "Wasn't Goku not fully mastered Super Saiyan" topic, either. It is a topic that concerns my power level list, and nothing more. Now then, let's get onto your next set of rebuttles...

He needs a lot of power when he's sliced in half and losing blood in the HUGE gaping chunks of bleeding stumps that are now his severed abodomen and arm, from which his SMALL INTESTINES(smaller than they are in real life, but whatever, that's Toriyama's problem, not mine) slipping out of. Goku gave him the necessary amount to mend the bleeding and escape to another planet to avoid certain death(or so he thought), and he even duly noted(to my memory) that he gave quite a fraction of his full power. Also, you have to remember that those beings who have as good control over detaining and freeing the bursts of ki can at one point emanate tons of power, bigger than his own at times, which was seen when Goku charged his Kamehameha against Raditz. Goku, at that time with a power level only in the low 400's, could not have had great control over his ki given that he hadn't trained at all in five years and he couldn't even temporarily increase his power in bursts that last a heartbeat(Kaioken) at the time, and yet his power went and skyrocketed all the way to the 900's and continually rose with a run-of-the-mill Kamehameha(not that that makes a load of coherent sense, anyway, given that a weaker Piccolo also in the 400's five years later could survive a SUPER KAMEHAMEHA, but that's irrelevent, and also the gripes I have with that particular fight). To have a final desperation move only go up to the hundred millions isn't too ridiculous, through my eyes at least. Also, I'm surprised you didn't notice that typo I made in the Freeza vs. Piccolo fight. I only intended to have Freeza at 1,200,000, and accidentally typed in "1,600,000," when he was slightly below a weighted Piccolo, lol.

Then, onto you, my dear sir "Pober," -removed-.

Lol. You say MY listings, completely abiding to canon logic in ranges and with all of the STATED POWER LEVELS correct, is a "bullshit table?" Your so-called "Official table" is a -Omitted- run-of-the-mill mediocre chart you're sure to find in any "shit" fansite, in that it doesn't even adhere to canon logic in that it has SSj Goku a 1.3x stronger than the Freeza who fought an even battle on all grounds with him until he wore down, amongst tons of other inconsistensies found in the crappy sources-for-power-levels "shit" that is the Daizenshuu, amongst other fansites which you're labeling "official(facepalms)," when the only "official" power levels in DBZ are the ones listed in Legendary's stickied thread, which could do wonders for a Dragonball -Omitted- like yourself. Face it, your list is drastically inferior to mine in all grounds in that I have all of the "official" power levels found in the JAPANESE MANGA original correct, as are all other power ranges, which is not the case with the -Omitted- excuse for references you deem "official," which is as much a joke as your paltry excuse for a -Omitted-. Either learn to accept that YOU DON'T KNOW ALL THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT DRAGONBALL, which I do far moreso than yourself, along with every astute debators around these parts, namely Legendary, Tyro, DarkPrince, and Tensa too if he still bothered to check up on this place. Your power levels are the ones that are -Omitted-. I did make ONE TYPO in the list and a few others I won't be assed to check up on, but that's nothing compared to the plethora(rather, a mount -Omitted- EVEREST, gawd) of errors and so-called "official" sources you call a listing. I may not know THAT much about DragonBall since I don't frankly give half a shit about it anymore, and only check up on the site at my cousin's place which I'm staying at and saw the piece of shit reply you call actual critiques first in, but I'm no more of a hypocrite who can't learn how to -Omitted-rather than -Omitted-. Take your own advice and "learn more," >_>

*thumbs up*

EDIT: Btw, does anyone have the out-of-ten rating that I specifically asked for? Give me it and a rep, and you get teh repz!

(You'd do better not to make off insulting others this earnestly. --LegendarySSJ7)

Speeding Edit: But the guy was asking for it, calling my list bullshit with so-called "official" lists he calls actual levels when they're from the damn DAIZENSHUU and FUCKING FANSITES which has Raditz at 1,500 which is much more than the 1,200 it gives the Saibamen and thus contradicts the manga on all accounts, and refusing to speak COGNIZANT ENGLISH, which is why I got a bit riled up and went in the err moment for a bit here. By the way, what would be your rating, if I may acquire?

Evil Vegeta

I really like the list, Speeding Catneko. I just have a question: What exactly does the Japense version say about the Cultivars power in comparison to Raditz? I've heard it said "they're at 1200 each"; but, I don't really know.

Also, slightly off-topic: Does vizbig really suck?

__________________

Thanks to Sphinx's badass skills. Yay.

Kenshyuk

Thanks a lot for the compliment(makes that arduous hour-and-a-half of collective time over at my cousin's house doing this list worthwhile), and if you could provide some rep for the list and critique the parts you find in disagreance, that'd be great too, +rep for you.

The Japanese version specifically states that each of the "cultivars" have powers at 1,200 each, which according to Nappa is "enough to match Raditz in power alone," to my memory. I used to have the scan I got from guys who critiqued my older lists when I posted them way back in MFG 03, I'll try to find it again, but for now, my word is what you've got to go.

+repped for asking. And yes, it does really suck, it's basically a two or three Kanzenbans' worth of pure material all "smushed" into one bigass book with a shitty-assed cover, I made the mistake of buying the Rurouni Kenshin one, the Japanese Kanzenban are much better(got all the colored pages, plus DBZ ones have the awesome new covers by Akira and the new ending), little reason why I have all the Kanzenban on both series' and sold the Vizbig on ebay with my Dragonboxes. Toei and Pony Canyon suck too ^_^

But anyway, again, thanks for the appeasing response, so may I inquire what would be your rating?

EDIT: Here it is.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8683/19hk8.png

Evil Vegeta

No problem. Also; I've looked at the list a couple more times, and have yet to find something I disagree with in it. So, I feel asthough the list is pretty flawless.

Thanks. That's what I pretty much heard as well. It's always good to hear someone give the japanese translation. I really appreciate that.


Thanks for letting me know about this as well. So many people were spouting off hype about it being the next best thing; due to color pages, and various cover arts. Well, now, I don't see what all the hype was for, and I probably won't be getting these now. The Japanese Kanzenban sounds like an more worthy option.

I would give the list an 10/10. This is as good as any list gets, and doesn't deserve anything less. Oh, and the rep.

That's a pretty good scan, also. The detail is very good, and just looks better. Thanks again.

__________________

Thanks to Sphinx's badass skills. Yay.

Kenshyuk

Thanks!



No problem. I have the volume for it, namely.. Kanzenban 17 or some crap, might be sixteen, but if I recall correctly it was the one with Nappa in the back cover or was it a Saibaman, haven't read it in ages, but I do pretty much recall what was said word-by-word, so it's always good to help out. ^_^




Yeah, not only does the Kanzenban have ALL the colored pages intact, but so are the sound-effects and stuff except for a few of the covers and the stuff towards the end where Buu was defeated and all that, a page of Buu being blasted with the huge Genki Dama was added, and so were a few cg'd coverarts, but aside from that what you get in them(not to mention, they are much cheaper individually and less of a toll for the one carrying them, paper quality is superb as well, better than the old Viz first prints from 2001) is pretty much the best of the Dragonball manga, so, yeah, I would recommend them to any fan, and the "Other artists draw DB" stuff is cool too, but I'm not sure whether they still kept them, because I didn't. ^_^



Thanks a lot, again. Like I said, makes all those arduous near-hour of collective time I spent worthwhile, though I have to log off now. See ya!



Yeah, the reinked-in stuff is pretty good in the Kanzenban(though it wasn't my scan), though I've noticed a lot of artistic errors still not omitted and fixed them instantly with my marker, like the Gotenks hair in 33rd Kanzenban, which has an awesome cover, the detail on the shattered palace is as good as you'll get out of mainstream artists. A lot of the actual stuff from the Buu arc aren't anywhere near as good, but meh, I'd be that way after going at the manga for 11 godforsaken years, so I don't blame the man.

feon2

He fought pretty evenly against a 1.200 saibaman. A 1.2x diference is a bit too high, I think.


lolI think Goku didn´t donated SO much power o.o
Just an opinion.

Overall, this is a good listing, I liked it =)

BurningVegeta

Oh Speeding Catneko I read your following post, and I must agree with the added notes and explanations thanks. I understand your reasoning now, awesome Power Levl list. Thanks for your time dude.

That was me, we got interupted...but now lets carry on.
-How do you know that?....



Son Goku is planning something...
-he has not fulfilled his goals inside the Hyperbolic time chamber...
-the solution of the Mastered Super Saiyan state is relaxation and rest, when do you see Son Goku or Son Gohan doing this inside RoSaT?



Vegeta's statement proves that Son Goku hasn't mastered anything yet.





Son Goku spent most of the year training Son Gohan to become a Super Saiyan.

Do you think differently now?

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Pober

BurningVegeta are u try to say they aren't MSS? so MSS is only name of Saiyan giving by fan of Dragon ball...MSS=SS they call on it MSS cos its full powered SS nothing more...Then when they end training in RoSaT they are SS and they are MSS this is the same...Goku only use there half he's strength...this 9 day he try to relax and spend Gohan time with Chichi...first what he do in RoSaT is Gohan make SS...later training rest year together...That's why Goku are more powerfull than Vegeta he have good assistant and teacher all live...so Gohan power is ~ Goku power...but powerless a bit...But "Vegeta" u aren't tell me to what happen with cell Zenkai?? u told he has Zenkai after [Final Flash], so then he have 2-nd Zenkai after [Kamehameha] Goku, later by [Kamehameha] Gohan and 4-rd when he Zenkai after destroyed Planet North-Kaioshen...do u really believe what u saying? so then he have only 1 Zenkai after destroy planet and rest is REGENERATION that's he have 3 times...and it take energy not give...The same with Freezer why u think Goku give him more energy hahah he give him a bit he's energy to Freezera escape...Freezera had 120.000.000 on full power form 4 not more!! why he give him 180.000.000+ he impress me with him inteligence...And u "Speeding Catneko" u have jap manga so try for me looking for Radiz power he have 1500 or 1200 in this kind of manga?? i only that's will now...

Kenshyuk

I hate to sound like a repetitive-sounding ******, but most people see the ranges the way I do, including some of the REALLY adept guys at the whole Power Level business, some of whom have him as high as 1,500-1,600- a near 1.3x difference, exactly on the latter. I don't find it to be TOO perposterous a range in that Yamcha easily overwhelmed him and smiled through all of the Saibaman's attempts at killing him, indcluding even the first(though that's just my opinion, all to his own I guess) attempt at grabbing and detonating on him which Yamcha easily countered with an afterimage followed by an uncharged Kamehameha which almost killed him even no less. That's hardly an "even" fight to my opinion and memory(haven't read that portion in SOOO long). Even Tenshinhan, who was even MORE of a match for the Saibamen, isn't THAT high on the list, only 1.3x, when Vegeta thought the battle was so one-sided he'd kill the saibaman with a "gesture" himself, which he only does to those whom he finds no use to him. So, as you can see, that's not really all that much of a problem at all in my eyes. But all to his own opinion, as aforementioned.




Yeah, I mostly did the 666 and 60,000,000 thing as a joke, mostly to bring the whole 120,000,000 thing(have to go Daizenshuu sometime, rite??), but that could easily be explained, albeit a tad.. you know, the whole tail-recessive-trait-ZOMFGIFORGOT-way. Nevertheless, well, here goes. Escaping the planet and safely rebounding over to his Freeza planet wiht such injurieswould require a hell of a barrier, given it was Akira's intention to make the planetary explosion and Goku's attack what kills Freeza(had it not been for the fanboys, DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT LUKE SKYWALKER WALKING IN AND GOING ALL SLICE-'EM ALL IS ANY BETTER A CHARACTER DEATH FOR THE BEST VILLIAN IN THE SERIES? THAT AND HIS FATHER, WHO COULD HAVE BEEN USED IN A WAAY BETTER WAY WITH THE FOLLOWING PLOTS?)which he not only would have a hard time avoiding with the wound to mend whilst escaping, so a (big) fraction of Goku's power given(roughly a thid, but that's just me) isn't really THAT PREPOSTEROUS through my eyes, though I see where you're coming from. Thanks for the rating though, but could I inquire what would be it out of ten?

Thanks! *thumbs up*

NAO REP ME!!1!!!


....
Now then, to our dearest n00b-of-the-day...


I deleted the GIGANTIC arduous wall of broken Engrish out of your post, and kindly request that you either learn to speak English or do not post at all. Sentences require a subject, verb, and so on. They also need to be capitalized whenever they begin, and end with a period or question mark and exclamation where it's NECESSARY. This isn't Daizex, but at least make your post legible, or I'll have a moderator do it for you. No-one is in the least hesitant of getting Legendary or Vegeto do it, much less me.(lol, Viz Cell.) You're worse than Ixidor, SRSLY... >_>

But anyway, those levels are stated only in the Daizenshuu if what I follow from the illegible wall of text that was your response, which the forums frown upon for general ranges(though by no means all THAT preposterous given it was Bird Studio that did them and Toriyama doesn't say anything about them being absolutely invalid). Raditz was infered as completely even with one Saibaman in all accounts, and a 1.25x difference which is what you have in those so-called "official" listings, which is also the case with the Freeza vs. SSj Goku shit, only multiplied by 100,000, but the rule still applies given there is more than a 1.2x difference, which pretty much ensures an insta-victory on Goku's part, which it wasn't. Either learn to accept that or get out like the trolling iliterate that you've effectively proved yourself in your terse time here. Even tepid waters have a hundred times more pith than the abominations that are your BROKEN ENGRISH POSTS.

BurningVegeta

Okay then sorry
...
Pober start a new topic as I cannot be bothered, and I didn't understand anything you were trying to say, sorry again.

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Kenshyuk

I could start it, along with a petition for reviving the Power Level section. But anyway, what would be your rating? I know some of the "666" stuff is kind of whack(which is what I intended), but aside from that, it's a hell of a lot better than the so-called "official" list(more like asinine "piece of bullshit") that anyone(especially JC) would agree to saying it lacks uber-hatred. ^_^