SaiyajinPerfection

Well....exactly what the title says: What are they?

I know that rage is the primary requirement, but what are the physical requirements? People keep telling me that Saiyans get stronger in their base after their initial SSj transformation, but I disagree. The entire reason for any transformation is because your current state has been trained to its peak (or limit), so you need to transform in order to allow yourself access to a larger ki capacity. But of course every Saiyan is different, and hit their limit at different power levels. Vegeta states this below after revealing his SSj transformation to the rest of the Z senshi.

"I endured a training from Hell. Then I ran into a wall, my own limits. Through the rage I felt toward myself, I awoke into a Super Saiyan."

This to me implies that Vegeta had trained his body as far as it would go (his limit), therefore he had to transform in order to continue in his quest for greater power.

Also I believe that once a transformed state is hit, you then not only have greater power, but you then are in a form that has new limits that it can reach. This would explain then how ascended transformations could be achieved. And this would also explain how the Super Saiyan state could very well be 50x base at any given time in the series, until it is mastered (or trained to the limit). And is it possible that the requirement for Super Saiyan 2 ascension is that you need to master Super Saiyan (aka be a Full power Super Saiyan)? There's only three Super Saiyan 2's in the series, and two of them were confirmed FPSSj. Is is possible that Vegeta was a FPSSj by the Buu saga? I think it's very possible, Vegeta states to future Trunks that he knew how Goku became a mastered Super Saiyan (DBZ. vol 17, pg 86), which implies to me that he knew how to achieve it as well.

What do you guys think?

__________________

Shaka of virgo

Goku past the wall of the saiyans when he train in 100 g and eat senzus after hurt himself, but is all doormant in him as he is gentle, the Saiyans have primitive and savage instinst, and wake up by rage, it happens before when Goku beat Piccolo Daimao, the time when Freeza Kill Krillin in Front of him, was the second, that Triger his first SSJ tranfornmation

__________________

Train hard and enjoy life, that is the Muten Roshi way.

king omega

Well for SSJ you need be stronger then or be able to be stronger then 1 million, and experiece some intense fighting/training.

You also need to be extremly angery at someone or something.

This is just for thoose who were born before one of there parents is a SSJ, and has had the power for atleast a year or so.

For thoose born after one of there parents is a SSJ, you need to be atleast 7 years old, and have a small amount of anger, and idk about Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. there just weird and noncanon.

SSJ2 for all

Of course, you need to be a SSJ1.

Now in Gohan and Vegeta's case, you need more anger(Vegeta wanting to be stronger then Goku, and Gohan seeing 16 die)

Goku apperently just trained a bunch in the afterlife, or used his anger at Cell maybe.

Also a powerlevel of over 3 million is required.

SSJ3

a power level of over 10 million is required, plus anger but not as much as SSJ1 or SSJ2

This requires a lot of training it Goku's case, but all Gotenks required was to be really really strong, and some anger.

SSJ4

A powerlevel of over 30 million, alot Brute waves, and be able to control your Oozaro form as a SSJ.

__________________
Yesterday seems as though it never existed
Death greets me warm, now I will just say good-bye

warcrack

Personally, I don't think anger or rage is the sole emotion that can trigger a super saiyan transformation; rather, I believe that any emotion that overwhelms a saiyan can bring it out. But there's no way to prove this, as all of the emotionally-related canon ssj transformations came from anger.I agree with you in that a saiyan probably has to reach his natural limit, or at least train his base state to a certain point (depending on the individual) before he can transform.The Buu Arc super saiyans are unusual in that they all seemed to have mastered the state. While I believe that they probably all had achieved mssj, it may have simply been Akira Toriyama changing his artwork after the Cell Arc. You can see this in the panels showing Mirai Trunks obliterating the androids and Cell. He has the aura of a mssj, but within the storyline there is no way he could have mastered the form so quickly. As for whether mssj is required for ssj2, I think there is too little information regarding that, but if we put the logic of "reaching your limit" to achieving ssj2, then it's possible that mssj is needed, as mastering the super saiyan transformation is a way of reaching the state's natural limit.

__________________

deckzone3000

When you can prove that Gohan, Goten, and Trunks went through rage when reaching SSJ, then I'll believe that it's a requirement.
How did base Trunks knocked Cell out of the city with just his ki then?

__________________
Gohan during the cell games is a KID!
Gohan during the buu saga is a TEEN!

warcrack

That doesn't have anything to do with his ssj transformation; his ROSAT training may have just made his base form more powerful than Cell. However, I do agree with you that rage isn't necessarily a requirement to transform.

__________________

SaiyajinPerfection

Cell wasn't as powerful in the future as he was in the present time line, a good majority of the humans in the future were killed by 17 and 18 before Cell had a chance to get to them. And there's no way to tell how strong Cell was prior to him absorbing any humans, or absorbing the little that he could.

__________________

king omega

I believe you do get some kind of increase but thats just my opinion.

There is really no way to tell if they do or not,

Goku trained on Yardat and for the andriods so he did seriously fight until the andriod saga.

Vegeta was in training when he turned SSJ, and he trained more afterwards.

Future Trunks, trained after he first turned super sayian

Gohan was still in training and fought Cell in SSJ1+2

Goten and Trunks were never show fighting in base before they turned SSJ.(Except for Gotens fight agianst Chi Chi, but that really does not count)

__________________
Yesterday seems as though it never existed
Death greets me warm, now I will just say good-bye

warcrack

Goten and Trunks fought evenly at the World Tournamant in base.

__________________

king omega

Yes, but they are not seen fighting before each of them first turned SSJ, except for Gotens spare with his mom, which i do not consider a 'real' fight since it was his mom.

__________________
Yesterday seems as though it never existed
Death greets me warm, now I will just say good-bye

Broly

I have a theory on this. Since Goku and Vegeta were SSjs by the time Bulma and Chi-Chi were conceived, it's very possible that they "pumped" the Super Saiyan gene into their sons, allowing them a much easier transformation experience.

__________________

Devilz

Like we know if Trunks was conceived before or after Vegeta attained SSJ.

__________________

ANB

1) IMVHO, Toriyama was just finding the most fitting way for Bejita to transform. He was mad as hell about Kakkaroto's superiority, and "hitting his limit" would drive him completely insane. I don't personally believe Toriyam literally meant Bejita had no potential at all, just that he had went really, reeeaally far and his body couldn't take any more strenuous actions (for the time being). This is the reason I don't agree with the anime's interpretation and deciding an asteroid was a good enough reason for him to transform.

2) Let's look in the dictionary ;)

as·cend,
<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

1.	to move, climb, or go upward; mount; rise: The airplane ascended into the clouds.

<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

2.	to slant upward.

<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

3.	to rise to a higher point, rank, or degree; proceed from an inferior to a superior degree or level: to ascend to the presidency.

–verb (used with object)
<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

6.	to go or move upward upon or along; climb; mount: to ascend a lookout tower; to ascend stairs.

<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

7.	to gain or succeed to; acquire: to ascend the throne.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tran·scend,



<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

1.	to rise above or go beyond; overpass; exceed: to transcend the limits of thought; kindness transcends courtesy.

<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

2.	to outdo or exceed in excellence, elevation, extent, degree, etc.; surpass; excel.

–verb (used without object)
<TBODY minmax_bound="true">

4.	to be transcendent or superior; excel: His competitiveness made him want to transcend.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, hypothetically "ascend" is what the Saiyajins do when they gain zenkais. By getting the snot beat out of them, blacking out, and then recovering they can "move upward along", or "ascend stairs". This can be applied with the leaps gained by any other race in the galaxy (human spirit, Namekian chi-bursts), and can even be applied to making improvements with life in general. So can it work with something explosively dynamic, like say...a 50-fold transformation??

When Gokuu wakes up after several days of illness, he tells his bretheren that "he is fine," and "I don't think I can beat the Jinzoningen or Seru,". Roshi asks what he will do and Gokuu says that a year of training might work. After the revelation of ROSAT, Gokuu goes on: "I need to get to work, to transcend the Super Saiyajin,".--DBZ volume #15, after Pikkoro and Tenshinhan look for Seru

Vegeta reaches a similar hypothesis. He experienced first hand the limits of the tranformation. But while he focused on strength and raw-chi-output, Goku noticed there was too much train, and over-all performance suffered. Chi management was also an issue. Goku came up with his "relaxation theory" and you know the rest of it.

...

SO, Is "Ultra" Super Saiyajin or "Super Super" Saiyajin an ascension or transcending...? I'll spare you my theories. In fact, I'll give you a quote from the manga: "This is a transcended super saiyan, or SS2 for short,:--to Babadi and Majin Buu

In other words, Ultra SSJ SHOULD be called "Ascended" and the fan-term ASSJ is very appropriate. It is nothing more than a power-up on the same level of efficiency as the zenkai. To transcend literally means "to improve and move forward". Ascending something isn't necessarily going to make things better. That was the whole reason Gokuu decided to cut-to-the-chase and master the form.

3) Was Hercule v. Chibi Buu a "real" fight...? Fighting his mother can easily be interpreted as "getting karate lessons". She is very knowledgable about the basics and would help Goten, a 6-year-old immensely.

4) The only thing required is that the base has been pushed further than it has ever pushed, and then it happens again later on in life (it can be as short as a few months). Although Toriyama probably did not foresee a transformation at that point in his work, Gokuu had a mild moment of insanity when Kuririn was assassinated. When Fureeza did it, Gokuu mutters about how this is the second time and he can't even come back anymore.

Not only that, he witnessed the even the second time so it was much harder on him. demonkingpiccolo's thoery about it being "dormant" has a strong basis, but is flawed. Goku was stated in a few panels, narrative on the author's part, to be "going beyond what his race is naturally supposed to do,". It wasn't (entirely) dormant, it was him pushing himself beyond all comprehension and achieving inconceivable leaps.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My theory:

-You're body must have been pushed to it's limit twice, the second time being more painfull than the first.

-You must have an incredible amount of will-power and sense of justice.

-You have to have INTENSE amounts of distress. Stress, anger, and sorrow are the leading emotions. They (distressfull moments), do not necessarily need to be overly emotional or even moving. Goten did it on a whim, and it came in part from his not keeping up with Gohan; A child's intuition: "I can't win, darn. I need to be better somehow--POOF,".

.......

^HOPEFULLY that actually meant something and someone benefited from it.

__________________

king omega

Umm both Trunks were born after Vegeta became SSJ, and in the mange future Trunks could always go ssj like kid Trunks, but they changed it in the anime so they could have the Trunks going SSJ scene.

and that is actually a stupid question.

peace im gonna eat now.

__________________
Yesterday seems as though it never existed
Death greets me warm, now I will just say good-bye

Devilz

Prove it.
(All replies like this do is breed enmity, flamewars, and discontent. Refrain from doing that. --LegendarySSj7)

__________________