MSGohan

I keep seeing discussions (on another board) where people just underestimate te capabilities and powers off Dragon Ball characters to a great extent. Usually using the "40-ton"-feat to downpower Goku to an absurd level.
If we review what they are capabel of, then we can start from Muten Roshis power to destroy the moon. Now if we consider the Saiyan Saga, at the fight with Nappa and Vegeta, certainly all of the Z-fighters could easily blow up the moon, not to mention Piccolo already did it before they arrived. Now we saw Tenshinhan use ALL his power to destroy Nappa, yet Nappa survived that! But there shouldn't be any doubt about that the attack Tenshinhan used against Nappa certainly should be stronger than the moon destroying blast, even though it wasn't that destructive. Their attacks doesn't need to be destructive, because they can just concentrate the same power in a smaller blast, and hence hit the smaller target, with a blast that have much greater energy density. Since otherwise, most of the energy would just be wasted on the envirements rather than the target. So this should be clear, that they can make their blasts smaller and denser, but just as powerful as, say for example a city leveling blast (Nappa's Bakuhatsuha). So it should be obvious that Nappa could take a blasts at least as powerful as a moon destroying blast if not more powerful!
We could maybe argue that since Vegeta probably could destroy a planet with his Final Flash, he didn't use that against Recoom but just gave up... Maybe that would be useless against them? Anyway that's just speculation. But Freeza in 1st form certainly should be able to survive his Final Flash, because why else wouldn't Vegeta use that against Freeza? The Genki Dama was stated by Kaio-sama to be able to destroy a planet, if Goku wasn't carefull when using it. Now at that point, Kaio-sama expected Goku to gather energy from the planet and some sun energy. But the Genki Dama that Goku created on Namek was much more powerful than the one created on earth, because he gathered energy from other planets in the solar system too. So that blast's power should CERTAINLY be >>> planet busting blast's power. But Freeza survived that. So it should be clear that DBZ characters from this point on (if not earlier) can (easily) survive blasts more powerful than a planet busting one.
Another thing is that Cell could gather enough energy to destroy the entire Solar System (maybe even weaker characters could do that). But Gohan returned an even more powerful kamehameha (well with some help of the others, but he probably could've matched that if he weren't injured).
Now if we look at Buu saga, then a MSSJ2 couldn't handel Buu. Majin Vegeta (> SSJ2 Gohan who fought Cell) used ALL his power to take out Buu. But Buu survived. Certainly if Buu could be defeted by a blast with a solar system busting capacity (or power), then a SSJ2 should've beaten him, but they couldn't, so this certainly should mean that Buu could (easily?) take a solar system busting blast (ofcourse the blast would have to be MUCH DENSER, in order not to destroy the earth). Actually this confirms that they can make their blasts denser and avoid the eviremental destruction, otherwise Vegeta's attack would be weaker than the one he used against Perfect Cell, and that wouldn't make any sense.

Another feat is their gravity training. When Goku trained at 10x earths gravity (and mastered it) on Kaio's planet, his base powerlevel went up to "over 8.000". Now when he travelled to namek he mastered training in 100xG. But after this training his powerlevel was stated to be "About 85,000". So by training in 10x (100xG) the earlier gravity training, which was 10xG, his powerlevel went about 10 times up... So theorectially (with a linear relation) Goku in SSJ form, where his PL was about 150 million should be able to train in about 150.000xG! This would've been really cool, but I think AT didn't think about this after the Freeza saga, because Vegeta's training in 100xG ruins this theory :(. But many things after the Freeza saga seems to be downpowered and there are some inconsistencies. This is probably due to the fact that AT wanted to end with Freeza saga, where everything was nicely planned with almost NO inconsistencies.
Actually if Goku were able to train in 100xG (before namek), he would weight near 10 tons in the gravity chamber. And it seemed rediculous that he was considering the 10 tons that the other Kaio suggested, to be impossible for him, and needed to turn SSJ... These 40-tons seems rediculous for many reasons. I mean at Freeza saga they were dealing with guys who could easily destroy planets and insanely powerful (my earlier statements about their power), and it seems rediculous that these guys weren't that strong after all. I mean there are characters in Marvel/DC who are lightyears away from those DBZ characters level, yet they can easily lift heavy masses, like thousands of tons :S
I'm refering to this feat, because this is what most people use to downpower the DBZ-characters. Judging from their power increasement from the Freeza saga it also doesn't make sense that they didn't get that much stronger. I've got two ways to explain this. First of all, accelerating an object to the super-speeds they have in DBZ in a tiny fraction of time, is no where near the same as lifting that object (way lower acceleration here), since the force that you need to exert on the mass in order to accelerate it, could easily be thousands of times greater than the gravitational force on the object, depending on the acceleration. To give a rough estimation of their acceleration, we can take some feats from DB, where they could catch/dogde a bullet. If we assume a bullet travels at 180 m/s (this is actually a lower limit, they usually are way faster, like for exmaple for an automatic weapon), and consider that a person is about 10m away from you. You can easily calculate how long it will take to get to you (10/180 s). If we assume that your hand is streched and resting, and the bullet was aiming towards you body (heart?), you would move your hand roughly about 30 cm (?). This would give an acceleration of about 20g (g=9.82m/s^2). So there you see even with such a slow speed the acceleration and hence the force can be that high!
The second is about relativity. But here we must assume that their speed just gets closer and closer to the speed of light, without reaching it. If we calculate relativisticly then when Goku went SSJ for the first time, his speed should be about 0.8c, since SSJ PL was about 30.000 times greater than his PL in saiyan saga, and that's where I get the initial speed. The rest is just adding the numbers relativisticly (no I didn't do 30.000 seperate relatistic additions, I used a recursive function in a computer program and voila :D, well with this method I could only calculate what the speed would be if the PL was 2^n times greater than on snakeway. But I could et close to 30.000 by using 2^15 = 32768 ;)). But as the speed reaches near the SOL, momentum would increase to infinity even though the speed doesn't increase to infitniy, because the relativistic momentum is m*v/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). This would be equivalent to a "mass" increase, so in you rest frame of reference you would observe the mass to be increasing. Since Goku is only moving his hands, from the initial frame of the rest of his body, it would appear that the mass on his arms is increasing. Since the "mass" increases to infinity as the speed approaches the SOL, the mass on his hands could've been any insane value you could imagine depending on the speed :D
Ofcourse it only seems possible, that only those who's number 1 favorit manga/anime/show is Dragonball would think this idea is not insane and crazy. Because it's only speculation, and it would probably be called the worst fanboy stuff ever by others. So I would like to know what peoples oppinions are on this stuff. Just shoot your comments, and let me know if there are mistakes. =)
PS: I usually forget words in sentences, so if there is lines that doesn't make sense, that's probably due to some missing words. I will correct them if I observe them.

TitanGoku

I agree with most of the things you said. The only thing I don't agree with is gathering the power to destroy a solar system. They could probably get the power, but they couldn't destroy the solar system in one blast. Planets are hundreds of thousands of miles apart, and i doubt they'd reach. Good job on the rest of it though.

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JAIF

TitanGoku's got this one right. That's what I've been arguing about in other threads. You can't just generate an energy ball whose size equals a solar system, if we consider that the larget the energy ball, the more energy you have to put in it.
About the 10-ton thing... they were 100 tons. Remember Goku was doing that on the Kaio planet (if I'm correct), so he had even more weight added to him from his own weight.

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LegendarySSJ7

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MSGohan

Agreed LegendarySSj7.
About the blast size to destroy a massive object: The blast doesn't need to be very big, it just needs to be dense, just remember Kid Buu's first small and simple blast that could destroy the planet as stated by Goku. So why wouldn't Super Perfect Cell be able to create a relatively small energy ball, dense enough, with the energy to take out the whole solar system as mentioned in the manga?
SuperVegetto3: Goku was training on Dai Kaio-sama's (correct name? other wise in english Grand Kai) planet. But yeah it's possible that the planet probably also had a gravity 10xG, which would make the weights 400 tons. And I agree with what Legendary stated about those weight, that AT haven't analyzed those features. But for me that only applies to post Freeza saga, IMO pre Freeza saga was a well analyzed work.

JAIF

Yes it's Dai Kaio-sama (if you care for that, Dai=grand/big, Kai=king, O=world, -sama=master). Thanks for that I didn't remember it very well.
About the energy blast though, most of the solar system is void, so how could one throw something at the earth and create an explosion that reaches all the rest of the planets? The mass is not a problem, if all the planets were combined into a single one Cell could destroy it easily but how can your explosion have a range equal to the distance between Sun and Pluto? Only if it can be that big can you destroy the Solar System in one blast but even the sunlight takes some days to reach Pluto so it's a really long distance.

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MSGohan

A supernova would likely be able to destroy every planet in the solar system. The blast would reach to them. I know it's a long distance to cover, but it would be possible. And I already explained that their blast doesn't need to be the size of earth in order to be that powerful.

JAIF

Your average supernova, no. Well there are huge stars with unstable cores that may collapse and generate a supernova with range greater than the solar system, but they already have an enormous mass. Either the planets have to be concentrated in order for a small blast to destroy them all at once, or a huge energy ball should be created-or one that could create mega supernova-class explosion.
On the other hand, in the Dragonball universe, anything is possible. If you believe that with a kiai Buu can rip the dimensions apart, then why not?...

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SS2 Vegeto

The sun's explosion, paired with the force of the blast would inevitably wipe out everything in the solar system. Otherwise, Cell wouldn't have said it.

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ram9

well,why depending on your opinion if toriyama made cell with the power to destroy the solar system.besides cell did not achieve to destroy the solar system so why speculating its impossible for cell if that blast can explodes unlike a laser that only travels straight and not exploding.cell almost achieve to destroy the solar system but prevented,just like buu (with gohan,piccolo,goten/trunks inside) almost destroy the dimension,most probably the universe but prevented by vegetto.actually majin buu was known destroying galaxy just as flashback shows when kaiohshin told goku about buu.
fact:
1.toriyama made cell with the power to destroy the whole solar system so why speculate MSGohan.Note this,.blast will lead to explosions just as always happen.
2.toriyama made the dbz characters able to use ki, the energy or life force found within all living things. This ki can be manipulated and projected, allowing a trained individual to possess powers far above a common person. Flight, super strength/speed/toughness, and manipulation of numerous forms of energy are all possible to a being who is trained to control their ki. In short its a matter of ki control/manipulation,that will answer all your speculation.3.Freeza can destroy planet without destroying its core, he already shown it by destroying planet vegeta.The only reason why freeza didnt destroy planet namek instantly coz he's in panic just as goku said (again its a matter of ki control/manipulation).4.As for ki manipulation/control its either you destroy everything or not.Depends on their power on how to handle it.5.Toriyama didnt made the dbz a strength type characters that always show lifting feats,they were destroying feats type.6.Blast is different from laser beam,if Cell was firing laser beam at that time maybe your speculation was right MSGohan.besides,you said there are plenty of characters in marvel that are light years away than dbzgt characters,will you name some except the one above all.as for dc the presence was excluded,if you can name some.
i said that coz in marvel/dc no one has enough energy to destroy solar system/galaxy without depending on a machine.example probes and beams

Raditz The Ruthless

[quote user="MSGohan"] I keep seeing discussions (on another board) where people just underestimate te capabilities and powers off Dragon Ball characters to a great extent. Usually using the "40-ton"-feat to downpower Goku to an absurd level.
If we review what they are capabel of, then we can start from Muten Roshis power to destroy the moon. Now if we consider the Saiyan Saga, at the fight with Nappa and Vegeta, certainly all of the Z-fighters could easily blow up the moon, not to mention Piccolo already did it before they arrived. Now we saw Tenshinhan use ALL his power to destroy Nappa, yet Nappa survived that! But there shouldn't be any doubt about that the attack Tenshinhan used against Nappa certainly should be stronger than the moon destroying blast, even though it wasn't that destructive. Their attacks doesn't need to be destructive, because they can just concentrate the same power in a smaller blast, and hence hit the smaller target, with a blast that have much greater energy density. Since otherwise, most of the energy would just be wasted on the envirements rather than the target. So this should be clear, that they can make their blasts smaller and denser, but just as powerful as, say for example a city leveling blast (Nappa's Bakuhatsuha). So it should be obvious that Nappa could take a blasts at least as powerful as a moon destroying blast if not more powerful!
We could maybe argue that since Vegeta probably could destroy a planet with his Final Flash, he didn't use that against Recoom but just gave up... Maybe that would be useless against them? Anyway that's just speculation. But Freeza in 1st form certainly should be able to survive his Final Flash, because why else wouldn't Vegeta use that against Freeza? The Genki Dama was stated by Kaio-sama to be able to destroy a planet, if Goku wasn't carefull when using it. Now at that point, Kaio-sama expected Goku to gather energy from the planet and some sun energy. But the Genki Dama that Goku created on Namek was much more powerful than the one created on earth, because he gathered energy from other planets in the solar system too. So that blast's power should CERTAINLY be >>> planet busting blast's power. But Freeza survived that. So it should be clear that DBZ characters from this point on (if not earlier) can (easily) survive blasts more powerful than a planet busting one.
Another thing is that Cell could gather enough energy to destroy the entire Solar System (maybe even weaker characters could do that). But Gohan returned an even more powerful kamehameha (well with some help of the others, but he probably could've matched that if he weren't injured).
Now if we look at Buu saga, then a MSSJ2 couldn't handel Buu. Majin Vegeta (> SSJ2 Gohan who fought Cell) used ALL his power to take out Buu. But Buu survived. Certainly if Buu could be defeted by a blast with a solar system busting capacity (or power), then a SSJ2 should've beaten him, but they couldn't, so this certainly should mean that Buu could (easily?) take a solar system busting blast (ofcourse the blast would have to be MUCH DENSER, in order not to destroy the earth). Actually this confirms that they can make their blasts denser and avoid the eviremental destruction, otherwise Vegeta's attack would be weaker than the one he used against Perfect Cell, and that wouldn't make any sense.

Another feat is their gravity training. When Goku trained at 10x earths gravity (and mastered it) on Kaio's planet, his base powerlevel went up to "over 8.000". Now when he travelled to namek he mastered training in 100xG. But after this training his powerlevel was stated to be "About 85,000". So by training in 10x (100xG) the earlier gravity training, which was 10xG, his powerlevel went about 10 times up... So theorectially (with a linear relation) Goku in SSJ form, where his PL was about 150 million should be able to train in about 150.000xG! This would've been really cool, but I think AT didn't think about this after the Freeza saga, because Vegeta's training in 100xG ruins this theory :(. But many things after the Freeza saga seems to be downpowered and there are some inconsistencies. This is probably due to the fact that AT wanted to end with Freeza saga, where everything was nicely planned with almost NO inconsistencies.
Actually if Goku were able to train in 100xG (before namek), he would weight near 10 tons in the gravity chamber. And it seemed rediculous that he was considering the 10 tons that the other Kaio suggested, to be impossible for him, and needed to turn SSJ... These 40-tons seems rediculous for many reasons. I mean at Freeza saga they were dealing with guys who could easily destroy planets and insanely powerful (my earlier statements about their power), and it seems rediculous that these guys weren't that strong after all. I mean there are characters in Marvel/DC who are lightyears away from those DBZ characters level, yet they can easily lift heavy masses, like thousands of tons :S
I'm refering to this feat, because this is what most people use to downpower the DBZ-characters. Judging from their power increasement from the Freeza saga it also doesn't make sense that they didn't get that much stronger. I've got two ways to explain this. First of all, accelerating an object to the super-speeds they have in DBZ in a tiny fraction of time, is no where near the same as lifting that object (way lower acceleration here), since the force that you need to exert on the mass in order to accelerate it, could easily be thousands of times greater than the gravitational force on the object, depending on the acceleration. To give a rough estimation of their acceleration, we can take some feats from DB, where they could catch/dogde a bullet. If we assume a bullet travels at 180 m/s (this is actually a lower limit, they usually are way faster, like for exmaple for an automatic weapon), and consider that a person is about 10m away from you. You can easily calculate how long it will take to get to you (10/180 s). If we assume that your hand is streched and resting, and the bullet was aiming towards you body (heart?), you would move your hand roughly about 30 cm (?). This would give an acceleration of about 20g (g=9.82m/s^2). So there you see even with such a slow speed the acceleration and hence the force can be that high!
The second is about relativity. But here we must assume that their speed just gets closer and closer to the speed of light, without reaching it. If we calculate relativisticly then when Goku went SSJ for the first time, his speed should be about 0.8c, since SSJ PL was about 30.000 times greater than his PL in saiyan saga, and that's where I get the initial speed. The rest is just adding the numbers relativisticly (no I didn't do 30.000 seperate relatistic additions, I used a recursive function in a computer program and voila :D, well with this method I could only calculate what the speed would be if the PL was 2^n times greater than on snakeway. But I could et close to 30.000 by using 2^15 = 32768 ;)). But as the speed reaches near the SOL, momentum would increase to infinity even though the speed doesn't increase to infitniy, because the relativistic momentum is m*v/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). This would be equivalent to a "mass" increase, so in you rest frame of reference you would observe the mass to be increasing. Since Goku is only moving his hands, from the initial frame of the rest of his body, it would appear that the mass on his arms is increasing. Since the "mass" increases to infinity as the speed approaches the SOL, the mass on his hands could've been any insane value you could imagine depending on the speed :D
Ofcourse it only seems possible, that only those who's number 1 favorit manga/anime/show is Dragonball would think this idea is not insane and crazy. Because it's only speculation, and it would probably be called the worst fanboy stuff ever by others. So I would like to know what peoples oppinions are on this stuff. Just shoot your comments, and let me know if there are mistakes. =)
PS: I usually forget words in sentences, so if there is lines that doesn't make sense, that's probably due to some missing words. I will correct them if I observe them.
[/quote]

Uhh, what did you use to come up with all these numbers because I..got lost throughout that whole light speed thing and gun bullet catching. What is V^2/c^2 ?

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ram9

well,why depending on your opinion if toriyama made cell with the power to destroy the solar system.besides cell did not achieve to destroy the solar system so why speculating its impossible for cell if that blast can explodes unlike a laser that only travels straight and not exploding.cell almost achieve to destroy the solar system but prevented,just like buu (with gohan,piccolo,goten/trunks inside) almost destroy the dimension,most probably the universe but prevented by vegetto.actually majin buu was known destroying galaxy just as flashback shows when kaiohshin told goku about buu.
fact:
1.toriyama made cell with the power to destroy the whole solar system so why speculate MSGohan.Note this,.blast will lead to explosions just as always happen.
2.toriyama made the dbz characters able to use ki, the energy or life force found within all living things. This ki can be manipulated and projected, allowing a trained individual to possess powers far above a common person. Flight, super strength/speed/toughness, and manipulation of numerous forms of energy are all possible to a being who is trained to control their ki. In short its a matter of ki control/manipulation,that will answer all your speculation.3.Freeza can destroy planet without destroying its core, he already shown it by destroying planet vegeta.The only reason why freeza didnt destroy planet namek instantly coz he's in panic just as goku said (again its a matter of ki control/manipulation).4.As for ki manipulation/control its either you destroy everything or not.Depends on their power on how to handle it.5.Toriyama didnt made the dbz a strength type characters that always show lifting feats,they were destroying feats type.6.Blast is different from laser beam,if Cell was firing laser beam at that time maybe your speculation was right MSGohan.besides,you said there are plenty of characters in marvel that are light years away than dbzgt characters,will you name some except the one above all.as for dc the presence was excluded,if you can name some.
i said that coz in marvel/dc no one has enough energy to destroy solar system/galaxy without depending on a machine.example probes and beams

MSGohan

[quote user="Raditz the Ruthless"]Uhh, what did you use to come up with all these numbers because I..got lost throughout that whole light speed thing and gun bullet catching. What is V^2/c^2 ?[/quote]

About the gun bullet catching: I assumed that a person is standing 10 m away from you with a gun. He then fires a shot at you, say at chest hight, and assume that before the bullet fired you hands were resting (streched down). When the person who is standing 10 m away fires at you, you will start moving you hand to catch the bullet which was in our instance aimed to the chest. Your hand's motion can be complicated to describe, but we can roughly assume that you move it about 30 cm. Actually the path of the motion of your hand is close to a circular motion, where you move you hand only about half a circle (move you hand and see for your self). If the length from the albue to the hand is about 30 cm, you would certainly move you hand move than 30 cm (about ½*2*pi*30cm). But a circular motion is a mess let's just assume a linear motion (since this is how they punch) where you will move your hand 30 cm. If the bullet has a speed v=180m/s, and fired towards you from a certain distance d=10m, then the time it would take to reach you would be t = d/v = 10m/(180m/s) = 1/18 s (or about 0.055 s). Since your hands were at rest you will need to accelerate your hand towards your chest, so it reaches you chest before the bullet does. So the least acceleration that your hands will undergo will be, since s = ½at² then a = 2s/t² if you just insert the numbers you will find an acceleration 194.4 m/s², which is about 20g. This was the LEAST acceleration, if the acceleation is less, then you wouldn't reach the bullet and your would be hit.



About the v²/c², then that was anoter calculation. It occures in 1/sqrt(1-v²/c²) which is a very common quantity in the equations of special relativity. The v is the speed, in our case, of the punches (though this speed is not constant becuase there is accelerations). But in a instant where the speed is v to an observer in a rest frame, the momentum of the moving object in relativity is p = mv/sqrt(1-v²/c²), where c is the speed of light. In classical mechanics the momentum is just p = mv. The quantity 1/sqrt(1-v²/c²), let's call it Y, increases to infinity as v approaces c, since you'd be dividing a smaller and smaller number. But if te momentum increases to infinity even though the speed only increases to a finit number, that is the speed of light, then it is equivalent to say, that the "mass" increases to infinity, even though it is only the quantity Y that increases to infinity.





[quote user="ram9"]1.toriyama made cell with the power to destroy the whole solar system so why speculate MSGohan.
(...)
besides,you said there are plenty of characters in marvel that are light years away than dbzgt characters,will you name some except the one above all.as for dc the presence was excluded,if you can name some.

i said that coz in marvel/dc no one has enough energy to destroy solar system/galaxy without depending on a machine.example probes and beams[/quote]
1. What do you mean? I didn't say that I was speculating wether Cell could destroy a solar system or not. I do think that Cell had the power to take out the entire solar system.
2. What I meant by "light years away" was, that there are WAY weaker characters in DC/Marvel than the DBZ-characters, that are no where near planet destroying level as the Z-characters, probably already in the saiyan saga, are. But yet such DC/Marvel can easily lift heavy object, that no Z-warrior demonstrated.

ram9

some dc/marvel characters are strength type (strength>speed>energy) but in dbz they are like this ki=speed>strength.but those ki can be manipulated/control of numerous forms of energy such as toughness so if dbz ki are strong enough to destroy a planet then they can block a ki that can destroy a planet if their ki are equal or slightly better or powerful than their opponent.

Vegeta-the most powerful sayajin

Try not mention comc superheroes in this thread. We don't want this to turn into another debate. I can see it now *shivers*...
Noob101: SS4 Goku is t3h best and can pwn Superman
Newb101: Wrong! Superman is 10x stronger than Goku. cuzz he is t3h strongest EVAAA!!

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