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On the subject of why Freeza/Goku were in the hundred millions.
It has come to our attention at large, as well as well before my time on an earlier rendition of the board that most people continue to perfervidly contest that Freeza (100%) and SSj Goku were not in the hundred millions and that Goku was using the Kaio-ken x10 the whole time, swearing up and down on that matter and not coming to heel with the truth behind the matter in a terms of the resulting altercation, for those who set up their teeth against each other think it's too high; the glancing flaw of pace? Well, this argument is a tad undercut in the immediate sense of the word. For starters, allow me to provide a French translation of the Japanese Daizenshuu (which, by the by, without being in question, is correct):
Now one may argue that the Daizenshuu is not correct when it gets stated power levels like - "Over... ....8,000" - wrong, or that even the French construing of said Daizenshuu is wrong. Well:
Consider this - the "Kanji Oku" or eight zeros as seen in full above actually means hundred millions in the Japanese numeric system. So through that summation, we can indeed surmise that the Daizenshuu is correct on this matter. If this doesn't stake the belief, consider this - why would Vegeta be so impressed by a nonchalant Goku who stood firm with no Kaio-ken aura flared who could sense Chi at that point to the extent of terming him as the Super Saiyan? And, why would Freeza concede that he knew Goku was reserving a great deal of power - no - not Kaio-ken x20, something he was never expecting to use. And why was the aura only shown flashing over Goku and projecting after the reserves are mentioned and Freeza goes to 50%? Moreover to the point, crane your head back on this one - why would Goku be so utterly amazed by his own power if it was anyplace below Freeza in his 1st Stage (full power) and when he's felt a power infinitely stronger than that? Want me to expand on the matter? Scrutinize these posts. Courtesy of The Chibi Kiriyama (at Daizenshuu EX) and myself (here):
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Originally Posted by The Chibi Kiriyama
I don't see why most have such a hard time coming to grips with the power Goku had. Vegeta went in one zenkai from being pummeled around by Reacoom to grappling with Freeza on a semi-equal plane. And in reality, when you look at it Goku was at 850 to 900 thousand after his 10G training. 180 thousand was, as Goku states, only the normal Kaio-ken and only for starters. Theoretically, he would have been close to a million at the extent he could perform the Kaio-ken to: Kaio-ken times ten. And that's before his zenkai. With his zenkai he was as strong as Freeza without having to perform the Kaio-ken. 3 million is a rather accurate estimate. And 50 fold for his Super Saiyan state isn't completely out there. Goku states for fact that the Kaio-ken times 20 increases his power 20 fold. The Super Saiyan state makes the Kaio-ken times 20 look like child's play.
Really, even though the Daizenshuu is somewhat inaccurate in literal amounts, the ranges are not so preposterous.
I don't see why most have such a hard time coming to grips with the power Goku had. Vegeta went in one zenkai from being pummeled around by Reacoom to grappling with Freeza on a semi-equal plane. And in reality, when you look at it Goku was at 850 to 900 thousand after his 10G training. 180 thousand was, as Goku states, only the normal Kaio-ken and only for starters. Theoretically, he would have been close to a million at the extent he could perform the Kaio-ken to: Kaio-ken times ten. And that's before his zenkai. With his zenkai he was as strong as Freeza without having to perform the Kaio-ken. 3 million is a rather accurate estimate. And 50 fold for his Super Saiyan state isn't completely out there. Goku states for fact that the Kaio-ken times 20 increases his power 20 fold. The Super Saiyan state makes the Kaio-ken times 20 look like child's play.
Really, even though the Daizenshuu is somewhat inaccurate in literal amounts, the ranges are not so preposterous.
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Originally Posted by The Chibi Kiriyama
Where to start...
Vegeta said (whilst Goku was in his natural state) that he was completely different, and apparently the power increase was indeed that tremendous- he went from believing he was a Super Saiyan after his zenkai to believing Goku could be the Super Saiyan. No Kaio-ken aura up at all, and yet he was so amazed by Goku's power he was willing to say he could be the one to beat Freeza.
Now let's look at the comments that say the two were straight-down-the-middle in power:
Neither Gives An Inch!This means that even at the same power Freeza killed Vegeta with Toriyama is directly implying that the two are dead even.
Freeza: "You're stronger than I thought. I'm a bit surprised. I didn't think anyone else in the universe surpassed Captain Ginyu."Now let's think about this statement. Vegeta was stronger than Ginyu, so much so that he matched Freeza in power. Piccolo was so strong after assimilation that he could feasibly beat a Freeza "over a million", even a Freeza who had powered up after stating his power was above a million in his Stage Two state. Then Freeza revealed his power increases hugelyfrom transformation to transformation. This same Piccolo is completely outstipped by Freeza's third transformed state, and goes on to say that the two fighters (still using only a fraction of their tremendous power reserves) were god-like in comparison. So there is a huge difference between the Goku fighting Freeza and the who fought Ginyu, much less Ginyu himself. So the conclusion here is not that Goku is slightly stronger but that this is a statement made in retrospect.
Freeza: "I didn't think you'd be this good. You're the first one who has ever put a speck of dust on my body...besides my parents."This goes to show that Goku (again, no Kaio-ken aura or outside augmentation of his power) is a viable match for Freeza's sheer strength.
Piccolo: "Freeza's only toying with him..."Freeza must be much stronger, right? Nope. Next statement:
Piccolo: "But there's no point in worrying. ..Goku's not giving it his all either..."Piccolo recognizes that both are only gauging strength and are no place near all-out.
Freeza: "I suppose that's enough warmup. I'll have to get serious soon..."Freeza recognizes this as well, and claims the attacks Goku threw his way were part of a dismissive warmup.
Now, let's examine the next fight in question. Goku's eyes blank out, and there is an aura that flashes over him; these are signs of the Kaio-ken, which Goku has stated before does two things: 1) augment his power by folds and 2) (when used properly) work in bursts that last the span of a heartbeat. Freeza sees this and avoids the attack. The battle spills into the two of them fighting it out. Notice that now there is no Kaio-ken aura to speak of. The two fight evenly. Goku then uses another Kaio-ken aura to catch Freeza offguard and throw him away. Freeza comes back with a flight aura but is stopped. The fight continues and Goku exploits an opening, forcing Freeza to end it with a punch.
What does this tell us?
A) This cannot be the 10-fold Kaio-ken Kaio speaks of Goku using later, as Freeza would have never dodged it. It can't even be a Kaio-ken times three, as the power difference would have overwhelmed Freeza. This is a run of the mill Kaio-ken.
B) The two, in their normal states, are dead even in every respect even without a power augmentation to either side.
Then Freeza uses 50% of his maximum power and completely outstrips Goku. This next phrase is critical to the entire conversation:
Kaio: "Sorry...But he's alreadyusing the 10-fold Kaio-ken..."Logically, Goku has to have used it. Kaio tells us this much. But pre-50% for the reasons I stated Goku could not possibly have used the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. This means that the aura that flashes over him post-50%before Kaio's comment is indeed a 10-fold Kaio-ken. But- and this is pivotal- Freeza easily counters with a kick that is so powerful it knocks him out of the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. What does this mean? It means that Goku using a Kaio-ken aura that made him 10-fold stronger than himself (the same Goku who fought an even fight with Freeza) is now much weaker than Freeza, who is only using 50% of his power. Goku then tries a 20-fold Kaio-ken aura that (by logic and basic fact about the Kaio-ken) gives him the power to do slight damage to 50% Freeza in the burst it is sustained for. Even then, 50% Freeza is so strong he avoids the attack long enough to break away from it and stop the resulting Kamehameha one-handed. And did he take any damage from a Goku 20-fold stronger and shooting a Kamehameha his way?
Kuririn: "That Kamehameha should've packed a huge punch...why doesn't Freeza show any damage...?!"To finalize this in a graph....
Goku = Freeza
KK Goku > Freeza (for a heartbeat)
Goku <<< 50% Freeza
KKx10 Goku << 50% Freeza
KKx20 Goku w/ Kamehameha < 50% Freeza
So, given these results, are the Daizenshuu's interpreted range that amazing? There is a massive gap between 50% Freeza and Goku to be accounted for, and Goku couldn't even make up for the respective reserve difference with an aura that temporarily made him 10 times stronger than himself. Mind you, still remembering that this is a person who only moments ago was only superior to Freeza during the span of a hearbeat using the basic Kaio-ken to double his power (without it, completely even to Freeza). Given the huge power discrepancy and the basic info about the Kaio-ken established again and again, it's simple arithmetic to compensate for it. When you do, you end up with large numbers. But does that make it wrong?
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Originally Posted by The Chibi Kiriyama
Why do people here continue to think it's too high? In 10 month's training (barely the full year) Goku went from about 400 when he first arrived to a max of over 32,000 using the Kaio x4. Heck, Goku was around 85,000 when he fights Ginyu and through the Kaio-ken x10 (which he said he mastered) could have achieved a power close to a million. The point is not "OMG NO ZENKAI WAS LIKE THAT STRONG!" The point of the matter is what we see. You can't overlook the basic fact that the Kaio-ken multiplies power by folds or that Goku (in a single zenkai with no Kaio-ken present) fought Freeza to a standstill. If the numbers get too high, throw away the mistranslation. I personally only agree with the Daizenshuu because my own estimates match it. One can say he was around 200 mil as a Super Saiyan, or one could say the Daizenshuu shot too far and go around 125 mil. But 12 million is way to low. Let's look at what some are saying here.
Goku: 300,000
Goku (Kaio-ken times 10): 3,000,000
Goku (Kaio-ken times 20): 6,000,000
How does that make sense? We see nothing that denotes the Kaio-ken. Goku says it's true power works in bursts; the elongated one he did for Ginyu was just to peacefully scare him off. So, if logic dictates it works in bursts, it can't be constantly used in fighting without even an aura for the reader to see. That's like saying Saiyans can be Super Saiyan without a hair/eye color change. Toriyama-sensei is a tad forgetful, but not thatforgetful. And, like I have said, Goku fought a completely onpar fight with Freeza without the aid of the Kaio-ken until the foot-to-hand battle (one were Goku drew blood from Freeza without an aura). And you're forgetting a few very important quotes:
Freeza: "And I know you still have a great deal of power in reserve you've tried to hide from me..."Misunderstood, you garner this from the post- that Freeza was saying Goku had yet to use full power, which you see to be Kaio-ken times 20. But that's faulty logic. Goku saw his 'full power' as being the Kaio-ken times 10.
Tenshinhan: "At his level of training, he should be able to multiply his power up to a factor of 10!"Ten sees Goku's max without straining himself to be a factor of 10, and again reiterates that the Kaio-ken still multiplies by folds.
Kuririn: "I just hope Goku's got some kind of plan! If this is as bad as it looks..."Piccolo: "He has none. Freeza's power was greater than he or I ever imaginged."Both Kuririn and Piccolo have observed that Goku's reserve power that Freeza commented on (usage of the 10 fold Kaio-ken) was dwarfed by the sheer force of 50% Freeza. In fact, Piccolo had more to speak of on the matter beforehand.
Piccolo: "There was too great a discrepancy between their respective reserves..."This means that the aura Goku put up when he rushed 50% Freeza after the initial elbow was indeed his reserve power, the Kaio-ken times 10. It's just that Freeza was so strong that even at Goku's notion of 'full power' he still outclassed him. And just to stake the belief here...
Goku: "I...I could try a Kaio-ken increase to 20times...but I don't know if my body can handle it..."Goku confirms through his hesitance that Piccolo and Kuririn were right. His threshold is the Kaio-ken times 10. The only reason he used the Kaio-ken times 20 was because he was desperate and did not forsee Freeza to be so erroneously strong that he would have to push himself so, not unlike how he took a risk in the fight with Vegeta by using a Kaio-ken he had never tried before at the cost of his personal well-being. In fact, it's an exact mirror- Goku is completely drained after the Kaio-ken times 20 and as a price (just like his usage of the Kaio-ken times three, then 4) finds himself losing chi rapidly and temporarily unable to replicate the attack.
So the problem I see here is that most say his max was Kaio-ken times 20, which they see to validate Freeza's "reserve power" remark when it was actually the Kaio-ken times 10 Goku had been keeping from him during the course of the previous battle.
Hand-to-foot battle = Kaio-ken aura, but definitely not Kaio-ken times 10
50% battle = definitely a Kaio-ken times 10 aura as confirmed by Kaio
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Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7
I wouldn't gallivant as far as to say that the Daizenshuu is flat-out inaccurate. It's fairly accurate given the range of power it assesses, and was also written by BIRD STUDIO itself, AKA Akira Toriyama-sensei's staff. And it's indeed true that Freeza and Goku were in the hundred millions range by the time Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan and Freeza reached the pinnacle of his true form - 100% usage. It's true that there are some incredibly large power increases and growth in the Freeza Saga Arc, but that's because Toriyama intended to end the Dragonball Manga at that point in time before the fans and his wife coerced him to do otherwise.
As such, Freeza also stated he was only using a very small percentage of his true power before going 50%. We can assume it's somewhere around 2% to 3%. Now, let's walk through all three of his "transformations".
Stage Two: Freeza transforms into a much larger form of himself. He levitates as his horns protrude to the side and as his power level and speed copiously grows. After this transformation, he states that his battle power was then "at least over 1,000,000". At this point, let's just say it was twice that of his 3rd suppression (1st form)'s power level - 530,000. 530,000 * 2 = 1,060,000, which is over 1,000,000, as he said himself.
After receiving an unanticipated beating from an enraged Gohan, Freeza powers up and the Zet Senshi take note as his power notably increasing. Given this bit of information, we can safely say his power level was at 1,330,000, just for a general estimate.
After merging with Nail, Piccolo arrives on the scene, allegeding and proving that he is easily a match for Freeza, but also was stated to have been stronger. Of course, not in the sense of outstripping Freeza, but still to result in a juxtapositional match. Given this bit of information, we can safely put Piccolo at 1,400,000.
Freeza once again powers up, and beats on Piccolo. Let's say that his power level had augmented to 1,550,000. After taking the bout with quite some nonchalance, Piccolo removes his weighted clothes and says that he's been hiding most of his Ki. Considering that this goads Freeza onto transform once again, into what's known as his third stage, we can presume Piccolo was probably around 1,750,000, to gain a conceivable and palpable edge to, again, sway Freeza onto transform.
Stage Three: Freeza, once again, transforms, into a much more abhorrent creature from a looks standpoint. His head almost elongates, and his nose blends into his skull as Piccolo is in fear of Freeza's once again subsantially grown power (Freeza himself also states that with each transformation, his power greatly increases, and that "each transformation brings more power than the last"). Considering that Freeza furthermore justifies this increase by being blatantly infront of Piccolo before Piccolo even finishes flying away from Freeza and effortlessly makes sport of him with his Deathbeams, we can say Freeza was somewhere in the 2,000,000 range - 2,200,000, to keep things in respective order.
A yet again irate Gohan once again is provoked to help Piccolo, unleashing a massive full-power "Masenko" on Freeza, that actually hinders him for quite some time until he manages to fend it off. This enables us to assume that Gohan was roughly *just* at 2,000,000. Being bewildered himself at the fact that Gohan could have released such a blast (though this was probably due to the near-death increase he received after Dende healed him, considering whence enraged, Gohan managed to flagellate Freeza around for a bit), he proceeds to transform into his true form.
True Form: Instead of once again growing in size or becoming even more detestable and fearful in appearance, Freeza slims down as the horns abjure back into his skull and he becomes much more streamlined in terms of looks. In this form, he proves to be so powerful and has a gait so high that nobody can even see his attacks or successfully locate where he is. Vegeta, on the other hand, after receiving a near-death increase due to Dende healing him after prying Kuririn to impale him with a rather pungent Ki blast, is not only able to temporarily see where Freeza is, but see his Deathbeam and knock Gohan out of the way, thus saving him from a certain death. However, Vegeta still is no rival for Freeza as he easily outclasses and does away with him. Even so, Vegeta would have to have been at least in the million's range to see Freeza's attack, so it's safe to put him somewhere above Freeza in his 3rd stage... 2,400,000 at this rate. For Freeza to have outclassed him and done what he did, he would have to have been significantly stronger. Somewhere in the low 3,000,000 range wouldn't be a bad guestimate here by any means.
Soon enough, Goku is finally healed, and makes his advent on the scene. He fearlessly trudges up to Freeza, confiding in such a battle. Freeza exprobrates the mere thought and attempts to land a kick on Goku - only for him to re-appear right behind Freeza and land quite an acrid kick of his own. Freeza quickly regains his poise and shoots a set of deathbeams at Goku, only for them to be easily fended off, and from the Zet Senshi, as well - all something Vegeta, even at full power, could not do. Freeza and Goku then proceed to engage in a longer fight in which he proves to be equal with Freeza, and infact, only at his base level. Freeza then agrees to engage in a short playful fight where he abstains from using his hands, and Goku even manages to land a few hits on Freeza using the Kaiô-ken (which level of Kaiô-ken used is unknown, but for the sake of simplicity, we'll say regular Kaiô-ken, which would abruptly increase his power level up to 6,000,000 in bursts).
Freeza then decides to end things right there by powering up to 50% of his true power, and grossly outclasses Goku, even using Kai ô-ken x10, as stated by North Kaiosama himself. This would put Goku's power level at 30,000,000, since 3,000,000 * 10 apparently equals 30,000,000. Goku then pulls of his desperation move - the Kai, as stated by North Kaiosama himself. This would put Goku's power level at 30,000,000, since 3,000,000 * 10 apparently equals 30,000,000. Goku then pulls of his desperation move - the Kaiô-ken x20 - in which he not only manages to land one hit on Freeza (even though Freeza dodges the next one), but unleashes a Kamehameha so herculean as to equate Freeza at 50% in power. Given this, Goku's power level at Kaiô-ken x20 would clearly be 60,000,000, and for his Kaiô-ken
x20 to equal Freeza at 50% in power, it'd have to be somewhere in the 70,000,000 range - by my estimates, about 72,000,000.
Goku, overstressed and bleared by utilizing the Kaiô-ken x20, then builds and eventually hurls a Genki Dama on Freeza, which seemingly takes him down until, he not too shortly after, makes his re-appearance, although looks visibly wounded as his tail had been reduced to a bleeding stump and one of his eyes had been damaged (which would an injured Freeza possibly somewhere in the 60,000,000 range as he didn't appear to be that damaged, 65,000,000 by my estimates, which is roughly 90% of what he had before, and (From Volume 11, Page 62):"I am still more than a match for all of you!!!!",)supposedly kills Piccolo and disperses of Kuririn. This enrages Goku so much as to awaken a deep power inside him - as to cause him to transform into a Super Saiyan. His hair flows upward and becomes a new hue - white, as a white aura engulfs him in a presumably shimmering light, as his eyes turn deep green and he sets his sights and intentions dead on Freeza. Freeza is unimpressed yet baffled by this new transformation until Goku easily treats him like a Ragdoll, proving that Freeza using half of his true power is nothing compared to him as a Super Saiyan. Since the Daizenshuu puts Super Saiyan Goku at 150,000,000, and 3,000,000 (obviously Goku's base level at the time) * 50 = 150,000,000, which is more than twice that of both Freeza at 50% and him being battered at that level of power, there's nothing wrong with putting him there.
Freeza eventually powers up to what's supposedly 70% of his strength, (From Volume 11, Page 109): "You underestimated me!! That wasn't even three-quarters of my power!", being less than 75%, that is (by my estimates, 100,800,000). This Kia blast he uses at this accumulating level of power manages to knock Goku back. Finally reaching 100%, Freeza states himself: (From Volume 11, Page 119): "Sorry to keep you waiting... This is what you wanted. Full Power.", or something along those lines. This abets us to assume he has healed from his somewhat injuries, and since 72,000,000 was his 50% power level prior to being hit by the Genki Dama, 72,000,000 * 2 = 144,000,000, which puts him in the 140,000,000 range as he should be and is enough for him to have the equal match he had with Super Saiyan Goku (even though he is weaker by putting his power level there, again, it's still enough to rival Super Saiyan Goku) until his bodystrain took its affect on him, as his more and more frequently decreasing power level caused Goku to have a large power advantage over them. The Daizenshuu puts Freeza's 100% power level at 120,000,000, which is by far too low for him to have competed with Super Saiyan Goku. With this said, in remaining loyal to the Daizenshuu, putting his strained power level at 120,000,000 wouldn't be that seething of an idea, since 150,000,000 / 120,000,000 = 1.25x (and that 144,000,000 / 120,000,000 = 1.2x, which is also supernumerary in supporting that Freeza's power level was significantly and constantly decreasing due to the strain put on his body which could have very well been a result of the Genki Dama), which is enough for Goku to do what he did to Freeza.
And... that's my 2 cents. I hope I've helped. Anyway, as for the Daizenshuu being accurate otherwise, you're right, it does have its erroneous assessments, such as putting Goku at 8,000 when he was stated to have been *over* 8,000, or putting Raditz at 1,500 when he was simply stated to have been over 1,200, and so forth. But in general, it's not all that inaccurate, to be fair, and to say the least, on an ending note of this post.
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And that should be enough to stake the impression on the matter in question. Based off of the canon Manga (and outside of TOEI not drawing the aura in the entire sequence of combating Freeza at 50%), with the root truths of the matter, there is nothing to contest, and any threads started on the matter will be locked.
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Last edited by LegendarySSJ7; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:55 AM.
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11-22-2006
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