Deep Thought

I created this topic to prove two things in Dragon Ball Z, one is the fact that the Z warriors CAN go the speed of light,and two is that the Z Warriors can destroy a galaxy. Lets start with the speed of light factor. Firstly, I'd like to state that Muten Roshi can go 100 meters in 5.6 seconds, this is STATED in Dragonball Volume 3. Secondly, I'm going to use Legendary SSj7's power level's as more proof (NOTE: I'm using his power level's, becuase he spent a lot of time on it, which make it more probrable to be correct, the list can be viewed here: http://mfgforums.com/forums/thread/41854.aspx). Assuming that this power level list is correct, it states that Muten Roshi's powerlevel is at 139. Next, let's take one of the power levels that are from the Buu Saga: Ultimate Son Gohan: 2,700,000,000,000. Using my CALCULATOR (In case you think my logic is faulty) I will divide Ultimate Gohan's powerlevel by Roshi's, Ultimate Gohan is 19424460431.655 times stronger than him, wow (use your own calculator if you will). Thirdly, I will multiply that by 100 (meter's traveled by Roshi in 5.6 seconds). The product is 1942446043165.5. Then, I will divide the time taken (5.6 seconds) for Muten Roshi to perform such a feat. The final result is 346,865,364,850.98 meters per second. Lastly, I will find the speed of light, which is 299,792,458 meters per second, that's EXTREMLY slow in comparsion to Mystic Gohan in fact it's1157.0183158209 times slower than him, wow, just, WOW. I'm not going to stop there either, I'll also show you all the other characters at their greatest:Super Sayajin Veggeto is 5287.5664401611 times faster than the speed of light, Super Buu with Gohan absorbed is 1992.6426550249 times faster, Super Sayajin 3 Gotenks is 899.90313452742 times faster,Super sayajin 3 Goku is 154.26910877613 times faster, Super sayajin 2 Vegeta is 34.28202417247 times faster. My second theory is MUCH simpler. Super Perfect Cell said he could blow away the solar system at full power, unless he was lying. So, all we have to do is see how many time stronger is one of the Z Warriors from the Buu saga is than cell, which we can find out by dividing our example's (Veggeto's) power by SP Cell's to see the result, Veggeto's Powerlevel at super sayajin is 13,000,000,000,000, while SPC's is 72,000,000,000 (Assuming the list is correct, of course). The final result is that Veggeto is 180.5555555556 times stronger than Cell (Super Perfect), which means that Veggeto (At super sayajin) can blow up 180 (roughly) "Solar systems". Gohan Buu can destroy 64 "solar systems" (This is an estimate, considering that he's actually 64.58333333333x stronger than SPC), Ultimate Gohan can destroy 37 "solar systems" (Again, this is an estimate, since he's 37.5 times stronger than SPC), Super Sayajin 3 Gotenks can destroy 29 "solar systems" (Estimate agian, since he's 29.16666666667 times than SPC), Super Sayajin 3 Goku can destroy 5 "solar systems", Super Sayajin 2 Vegeta can desroy one. I rest my case.

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Goku2212

WOW is all i can say, thanks for posting this, this helps clear the confusion thats around, and thanks for putting so much effort in to one post =D

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SS2 Vegeto

It's not really surprising since we know that SSJ Gotenks, before training in the Room of Spirit and Time (in which he was stated to have become "way stronger") is faster than light himself, while mostly just playing around. That aside, not really necessary to do all the calculations with Toriyama stating that people could move faster than light in one interview...so...yeah.

That, speed may not necessarily increase at the same rate as power (eg. Perfect Cell buffing up and becoming much stronger, and at the same time, far, far slower), and it more than likely different amongst different individuals. Thus it's very difficult, if not impossible to actually get an exact range on it, though we do know atleast as much as certain individuals existing that are multiple times faster than the speed of light.

Power wise, they can probably destroy more than that, in my opinion, based purely on the fact that I keep the 50x super saiya-jin multiplication factor, and each stage of super saiya-jin multiplying the last stage, rather than a bigger increase for the base. Whereas most people use a 5x multiplication factor, and a lot of people always multiply from the base. Plus, galaxy will have more than hundreds of solar systems, so by those particular calculations, they couldn't....though I can see multi-galaxy destroyers from my perspective.
Then, there's the fact that you might not even be able to calculate it by that....maybe, maybe not. There are clear plot holes and logical impossibilities in the earlier stages of dragonball, particularly from Piccolo Daimao to Piccolo Jr, involving power.

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Deep Thought

[quote user="SS2 Vegeto"]It's not really surprising since we know that SSJ Gotenks, before training in the Room of Spirit and Time (in which he was stated to have become "way stronger") is faster than light himself, while mostly just playing around. That aside, not really necessary to do all the calculations with Toriyama stating that people could move faster than light in one interview...so...yeah.That, speed may not necessarily increase at the same rate as power (eg. Perfect Cell buffing up and becoming much stronger, and at the same time, far, far slower), and it more than likely different amongst different individuals. Thus it's very difficult, if not impossible to actually get an exact range on it, though we do know atleast as much as certain individuals existing that are multiple times faster than the speed of light.Power wise, they can probably destroy more than that, in my opinion, based purely on the fact that I keep the 50x super saiya-jin multiplication factor, and each stage of super saiya-jin multiplying the last stage, rather than a bigger increase for the base. Whereas most people use a 5x multiplication factor, and a lot of people always multiply from the base. Plus, galaxy will have more than hundreds of solar systems, so by those particular calculations, they couldn't....though I can see multi-galaxy destroyers from my perspective.Then, there's the fact that you might not even be able to calculate it by that....maybe, maybe not. There are clear plot holes and logical impossibilities in the earlier stages of dragonball, particularly from Piccolo Daimao to Piccolo Jr, involving power.[/quote] Not necessarily, I imagined that the Super Sayajin transformation increased power, speed and Ki control alike, and if it does, then Super Sayajin 2 and 3 are no different (Except the multiplier is higher). Notice that all characters that I posted were in Super sayajin transformations, except Gohan and Gohan Buu, and, as for Gohan, since when does unlocking all of your potenial make you slower? Gohan Buu is pretty self-explainatory, considering that I thought that he was not, by all means, "slow". As for the galaxy, perhaps you are right, after all, I put less effort in the "solar system" destruction factor. Lastly, Akira Toriyama could've been saying that in a joking manner, becuase in majorly sounding like he was. Thanks Goku2212 for commenting me and my topic.

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JAIF

About the speed of light yes the Z fighters and their enemies surpassed the speed of light sometime between Cell and Buu saga arcs but not by an amount that high. I believe this power list to have power levels a lot higher than they should be (don't get me wrong, they are correct when compared to the people they interact-fight-with, it's just that from some point forth, they increase by extraordinarily high amounts). And keep in mind I do believe that, except in special cases like Buffed Perfect Cell and USSJ, speed rises at the same rate as power, for example Power: 1000-->2000 then Speed: 600-->1200.
As for the galactic destruction... allow me to retain my doubts. If the galaxy's entire mass was concentrated on one place then yes people like SS3 Gotenks and stronger could most possibly have destroyed it with relative ease... but since it's spread out to such a horrifyingly large area, I doubt all essence in the galaxy can be destroyed at once by anyone. But yes if we were to make our calculations on concentrated mass, Super Vegeto could probably wipe out the entire universe in a single blast.

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LegendarySSJ7

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Deep Thought

So, from what you guys are saying, if some one makes and manufacters an abysmal car, and if someone buys it and it breaks on the second day, than it persons fault for buying it? I don't think so, it seems more like the MANUFACTER'S fualt to me, not that I'm hinting towards anything. Seriously, though, I spend an hour on this and it turns out to be partially my fault? Call me crazy, but I'd perfer it if you guys actually complained (if you had to at all) on my work, then I could at least take the blame. This doesn't even feel like my fault. This is the reason why I don't use incorrect and fan-made information sources like Wikipedia, but I thought I'd choose something that I thought was a great source of DBZ information. Actually, if I can't trust my logic and my mental abilities, then I might as well give up on everything. Even though you guys said that it was still good, it feels like your humouring me. In the end, I feel betrayed and used, and, no, it's not just this topic, this is the mere straw that broke the camel's back. This is why I'm an emo (for lack of a better word) all the time, now you know.

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JAIF

You misunderstood our intentions. It's not like we do not understand and take into consideration the effort you put into extracting these results. But the fact alone that they are derived from such an "unreliable" database as a "random" power level list (again, I'm not implying anything against the list in question, I'm just saying it has nothing to do with "official" sources), from which you yourself said you drew your conclusions from allows for some debate. What we meant by replying was not to insult you or disregard your work, which is highly commendable, but to offer creative comments and our opinions on the subject at hand, and that's the way one can extract results as close to "reality" as possible. Well, as of what was mentioned about the two topics having been discussed before in other threads... well that's actually the truth.
To leave formalities aside, I'm really sorry if I hurt you. I certainly didn't mean it and I feel terrible for making you think like that. This was no place near your fault-if it can be considered anyone's fault anyway-these topics are amongst the most questionable ones regarding the Dragonball universe, and you were right to add your opinion. I am really sorry if I criticised your work too hard-my purpose wasn't to criticise it in the first place, but to add to it, making you view the issue from another perspective.
I don't know if any of this makes you feel any better. Anyway I hope so.

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Deep Thought

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"]You misunderstood our intentions. It's not like we do not understand and take into consideration the effort you put into extracting these results. But the fact alone that they are derived from such an "unreliable" database as a "random" power level list (again, I'm not implying anything against the list in question, I'm just saying it has nothing to do with "official" sources), from which you yourself said you drew your conclusions from allows for some debate. What we meant by replying was not to insult you or disregard your work, which is highly commendable, but to offer creative comments and our opinions on the subject at hand, and that's the way one can extract results as close to "reality" as possible. Well, as of what was mentioned about the two topics having been discussed before in other threads... well that's actually the truth.
To leave formalities aside, I'm really sorry if I hurt you. I certainly didn't mean it and I feel terrible for making you think like that. This was no place near your fault-if it can be considered anyone's fault anyway-these topics are amongst the most questionable ones regarding the Dragonball universe, and you were right to add your opinion. I am really sorry if I criticised your work too hard-my purpose wasn't to criticise it in the first place, but to add to it, making you view the issue from another perspective.
I don't know if any of this makes you feel any better. Anyway I hope so.

[/quote] Well, I was already in a bad mood, and seeing this didn't help a bit. Anyway, sorry for the overreaction.

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ultimate sayia-jin 5

I have my doubts about Galaxy destroying even a Dwarf Galaxy is thousands of times larger then the solar system. Also the mass of even a Dwaf Galaxy is also millions or billions as much of times as the solar system. Also heard mentioning of what was interperted as me thinking AUs equal power levels the truth is I never said that. I simply used AUs because they are the best unit of mesurement for that distance. The only assumtion I made is power levels work to scale for instance I belive if someone can destroy 40 Square Miles some one 3 times as strong can destroy 120 Sqaure miles, and if some can destroy 4 AUs aomeone twice as strong can destoy 8 AUs. I could also have said .59 Light Years, 3.4875 Trillion MIles, 5.625 Trillion Kilometers, or even 5.625 Un Decillion yoctometers and many other units instead of the 37,500 AUs i used in that topic it was simply the best chioce IMO.

Deep Thought

[quote user="ultimate sayia-jin 5"]I have my doubts about Galaxy destroying even a Dwarf Galaxy is thousands of times larger then the solar system. Also the mass of even a Dwaf Galaxy is also millions or billions as much of times as the solar system. Also heard mentioning of what was interperted as me thinking AUs equal power levels the truth is I never said that. I simply used AUs because they are the best unit of mesurement for that distance. The only assumtion I made is power levels work to scale for instance I belive if someone can destroy 40 Square Miles some one 3 times as strong can destroy 120 Sqaure miles, and if some can destroy 4 AUs aomeone twice as strong can destoy 8 AUs. I could also have said .59 Light Years, 3.4875 Trillion MIles, 5.625 Trillion Kilometers, or even 5.625 Un Decillion yoctometers and many other units instead of the 37,500 AUs i used in that topic it was simply the best chioce IMO.[/quote] I'm really starting to regret using the word "galaxy", becuase it's sounding like I'm overexagrating. I just couldn't find a better word, since "solar system" wouldn't fit, becuase (according to my calculations) the Zet seshi could destroy more than one (assuming that celll wasn't lying). I wish I could find a better word......... becuase all I can think of is "galaxy fragment", and that doesn't fit.

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LegendarySSJ7

[quote user="Deep thought"][quote user="ultimate sayia-jin 5"]I have my doubts about Galaxy destroying even a Dwarf Galaxy is thousands of times larger then the solar system. Also the mass of even a Dwaf Galaxy is also millions or billions as much of times as the solar system. Also heard mentioning of what was interperted as me thinking AUs equal power levels the truth is I never said that. I simply used AUs because they are the best unit of mesurement for that distance. The only assumtion I made is power levels work to scale for instance I belive if someone can destroy 40 Square Miles some one 3 times as strong can destroy 120 Sqaure miles, and if some can destroy 4 AUs aomeone twice as strong can destoy 8 AUs. I could also have said .59 Light Years, 3.4875 Trillion MIles, 5.625 Trillion Kilometers, or even 5.625 Un Decillion yoctometers and many other units instead of the 37,500 AUs i used in that topic it was simply the best chioce IMO.[/quote] I'm really starting to regret using the word "galaxy", becuase it's sounding like I'm overexagrating. I just couldn't find a better word, since "solar system" wouldn't fit, becuase (according to my calculations) the Zet seshi could destroy more than one (assuming that celll wasn't lying). I wish I could find a better word......... becuase all I can think of is "galaxy fragment", and that doesn't fit.[/quote]

(Volume 35 / 19, Page 98) SSj 2 Complete Cell: "I HAVE ENOUGH CHI TO BLOW AWAY THE ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM!!!!"


He heavily states such. By his own admittion (even if not in friendly tones). I don't get why people see this in low light and get into altercations about this - when Cell directly states he has enough power to disable the Solar System with the spectacular amount of output and sheer volume power he wields and displays whilst accessing SSj2 (as he shows his new oversea SSj2 aura, dancing free and kicking free, and somewhat chaotic with the bolts of lightning dancing about and breaking out in all directions), at least with through the Kamehameha, he isn't full of calumny, and I don't see how it would be any place near to giving pause.

But yes, by the Boo Saga Arc, the Zet Senshi's power and for that matter Boo's power is indeed that tremendous by comparison and to claim they could deal away with a bank of galaxies at sheer caprice isn't a lapse in recollection in my eyes and something I'd chalk it up to. Look at it this way:

Vegeta states after having his latent potential brought out by Bobbodi (as denoted by his pulsating veins, exhibiting a veiny disposition) at SSj2 and when Goku went to SSj2, that they were both stronger than SSj2 Gohan (Cell Games). A length above, but not in the range where one could wonder how said SSj2 Gohan would do anything against them.The Fat incarnation of Majin Boo at not even the roof power and not even at the height of the battle easily proves that he's any place near a far, far, far stride away from SSj2 Possessed Vegeta and even gives SSj3 Goku ado in a sense of the word.
Then we have Shin Boo, who's several fold above and a length away from all of them. Put a much stronger Ultimate Gohan and Shin Boo w/absorptions into the mingling, as well as SSj Vegetto only using a fraction of his power without stretching things by far, and it isn't unendingly odd that they could do away with more than one solar system at their leisure in one blast and I don't see anything that would put a wrench in that plan, conforming with my own findings and in my recollection.

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JAIF

...unless Cell meant to destroy something with the mass of the solar system. I find it highly impossible that Cell (or even anyone prior to the fusion saga) had the ability to create an energy ball and extend it so that it has a diameter equal to the solar system's diameter. In the empty space between the planets, you don't have to put force because, well there is nothing to destroy. But when you create an energy ball I think it's power is equal in it's whole volume, so you can't just have an energy ball with all the power concentrated where the planets are, and everywhere else no power. On the other hand, if the entire mass of the solar system was concentrated in a single, let's say, planet (the size of all the planets of the solar system together, including the sun and the occasional meteorites-space rocks, I see no problem with Cell post regeneration destroying it in a single blast. But destroy the solar system in it's actual state... difficult.

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SS2 Vegeto

You could have used...."mass solar sytem destroyer", and if you want, even break it down into things like "Low-scale multi-solar system destroyer", "Mid-level multi-solar system destroyer", "High-scale multi-solar system destroyer", "Low-Scale mass solar system destroyer", "Mid-level mass solar system destroyer", and "High-scale mass solar system destroyer".

Personally, since I use far higher transformation factors than most people, I'd go with the assumption that there are galaxy destroyers, and maybe even "Low-scale multi-galaxy destroyers". If you use a theoretical factor for SSJ3 Vegetto, you can go a good amount higher than that.

I don't mean to say there is no speed increase either, as opposed to, we don't know what it is or how that works. We do know that it would be considerably greater than the speed of light, though how much so, isn't something we can get a definitive answer on.

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"]
...unless Cell meant to destroy something with the mass of the solar system. I find it highly impossible that Cell (or even anyone prior to the fusion saga) had the ability to create an energy ball and extend it so that it has a diameter equal to the solar system's diameter. In the empty space between the planets, you don't have to put force because, well there is nothing to destroy. But when you create an energy ball I think it's power is equal in it's whole volume, so you can't just have an energy ball with all the power concentrated where the planets are, and everywhere else no power. On the other hand, if the entire mass of the solar system was concentrated in a single, let's say, planet (the size of all the planets of the solar system together, including the sun and the occasional meteorites-space rocks, I see no problem with Cell post regeneration destroying it in a single blast. But destroy the solar system in it's actual state... difficult.
[/quote]

The amount of increase in the actual size of the blasts is pretty small, atleast considering the amount of increase in power involved. Not to mention it's directly stated in one case (Vegeta's final flash) that they are completely capable of narrowing their blasts in order to avoid wide-scale damage. So that's pretty much null and void.

In addition, Cell pretty much directly states that he could wipe out the entire solar system with the amount of that he has. Whether or not someone wants to believe those words is up to them, but that's pretty direct, and doesn't at all imply what you're implying.

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