gogeta is # 1

well, most of them are weaker than that. The farmer that Raditz fought had a gun so majority of them supposed to be weaker than the power level of 5.

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lolololol

JAIF

lol how does holding a gun suddenly increase your power level?

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SaiyajinPerfection

Vegerot is Vegetto's English Manga Name.

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JAIF

Lol in the japanese the Potara fusion between Goku and Vegeta was named Bejiito (Vegeta = Bejiita and Goku = Kakkaroto). But in english, Bejiita was renamed into Vegeta and Kakkaroto to Kakkarot. So Vegeto didn't make any sense... yet that's how Bejiito was translated in the anime. However they did the proper change in the manga, and renamed him Vegerot, from Vegeta and Kakkarot. But most use Vegeto or Vegito (including me) because it sounds much better.
As for the light speed... I really didn't understand why Vegeto told Shin Buu he was trying to keep track of his enemy by sight alone... I mean noone could see the fighters moving by pure sight even in Dragonball, let alone Z, so Shin Buu must have been using some sort of sense to detect the enemy movement besides sight otherwise he wouldn't be able to fight against Gotenks and Gohan...
Note, however, that someone can move at a speed way below the speed of light and still remain unseen by normal eye. It's like light moves at 300,000km/sec but even if you move at 300,000km/hour from what I know, still noone will be able to see you.

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ram9

dbz is at lightspeed,coz we can see images because of light basically how can ssj gotenks leaves a trail of light around the planet even he is still moving around if he is slower than light,that is basic physics.

answer that first and if you answer that correctly,i will believe that dbz is not at lightspeed.

JAIF

The light you are referring to is Gotenks' aura. It's like a meteorite. Not much more needs to be said.

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MSGohan

Ofcourse you don't need to move at light speed to be unseen. It depends on the size and speed ratio, and from what distance you observe. Normally you won't be able to see a bullet, but if you observe it from a long distance you will see it (at least the fire light from it). If the bullet was big enoug you could probably also observe it from a much closer range.
I've tried to make a hypothesis about how DBZ character's speed vary with their PL. I know people will argue that the USSJ form would violate this, but the fact is we only know that their BRUTE STRENGH increased when they got into that form, we know nothing about their PL. The only thing we know is that speed and strengh weren't balanced. Since there is NO indication that they weren't balanced before, it wouldn't make sense to assume that strengh and speed aren't balanced with increasing PL, since there is nothing mentioned about this besides the USSJ form, whose PL is unknown.
In my earlier post, I calculated that if their speed increased linearly with their powerlevel, which means that for example if you at a powerlevel of 1 000 have a speed 1 000 km/hr, then at a PL of 2 000 your speed should be 2 000 km/hr. By this assumptions, a person with a powerlevel of 150 000 000 (SSJ Goku on Namek) should have a speed right about the speed of light (about 1.1*c). I estimated this by using Goku's speed on snakeway, where I estimated his PL to be around 5 000 (he might have used more power on the travel at snakeway, implying a LITTLE less speed at namek when SSJ).
Actually we can calculate more speed at some certain powerlevels. Muten Roshi's speed from DB, at a PL about 139 was 100m/5.9s=61 km/hr. Another thing is using how long it took Goku to get to Kaio's planet. Remember Vegeta and Nappa was supposed to arrive a year after Raditz was killed. When Goku got to Kaio's planet, Kaio told him that he only had 158 days left before the saiyans would arrive. That means it him 365 - 158 = 207 days to get to Kaio's planet. So his speed then was
1 000 000km/(207*24hr) = 201.3 km/hr
his PL then was 334, since he was wearing his weighted clothing. We therefore have
Roshi:

PL 139, v = 61 km/h
Goku:
PL 334, v = 201.3 km/h
PL 8000, v = 41.666,7 km/h
If speed in DBZ increased linearly with PL, then since Goku's PL was 334/139 = 2.40 times greater Muten Roshi's, his speed should be 2.4*61km/hr = 146.4 km/hr. This might look like bad estimations of their PL, but if you take Goku's speed at the return where it was,
1.000.000km/(24hr) = 41 666,7 km/hr
Then you can see that this is 207 times greater than his speed (201.3 km/hr) on his way to Kaio. But his PL increase was much lower (roughly 10 times lower) than the speed increase. About 8 000/416 = 19.2. Clearly this should suggest that the PL increase is "greater" than a linear increase.
I tried to find a function for the speed denpending on the PL, from the 2 first PL and speed data, to predict the 3. one (snakeway return). A linear function won't give a speed as high as high as the one Goku had on the way back (this should already be clear from the example above). An exponential function gives a speed that is way too great, so the speed doesn't increase exponentially with PL.
I then tried a 2. order polynomial to fit the first to data (Muten Roshi speed and PL, and pre-Kaio-training Goku speed and PL). This predicted his speed on the way back on snakeway best, since it predicted his speed over "average" to be about 39 480 km/hr (pretty close to those 41 666.7 km/hr, ofcourse there are some uncertainties in both calculation, since we don't know wether it was exactly 24 hr it took him, or his exact PL usage on snakway). I use the term average because Goku's PL not powered up was 5 000 and powered up 8 000. Since we don't know wether he was powered up on snakeway travel or not, I took the average, (v(8000) + v(5000))/2.
By this assumption SSJ Goku's (and Freeza's) speed would be greater than the speed of light. Ofcourse even with a linear relation they (Goku & Freeza) would be FTL. But the first 2 "data-points" clearly shows that it is GREATER than a linear increase.
So in conclusion, Freeza and Goku was moving at LEAST at the speed of light (even if you ignore my calculations of the speed as a function of PL, which gives a way higher speeds).

Aken_Bosch

If that's true, why did it take Gotenks so long to go around the earth a few dozen times? PL and strength + speed don't linearly increase. Besides, speeds above Mach 10 in an atmosphere make bad things happen. On top of that, if you travelled at light speed, you'd constantly see images of yourself behind you, it'd require infinite energy, etc.
No one in DBZ moves at light speed. 1/4 of C max, and even that is pushing it.

JAIF

[quote user="MSGohan"] Another thing is using how long it took Goku to get to Kaio's planet. Remember Vegeta and Nappa was supposed to arrive a year after Raditz was killed. When Goku got to Kaio's planet, Kaio told him that he only had 158 days left before the saiyans would arrive. That means it him 365 - 158 = 207 days to get to Kaio's planet. So his speed then was
1 000 000km/(207*24hr) = 201.3 km/hr
[/quote]
I pretty much agree with the person who posted directly above me, though I want to comment this.
Goku didn't take 207 days to travel to Kaio-sama's planet. He fell in Hell, then began again, then stopped at Princess Snake's palace, then stopped to eat (clouds-lol), sleep and the such. So the actual travel time was less. Besides, the Saiyans arrived one month earlier, but I'm not sure if you included that in your calculations (I'm too bored to review the episodes right now)
If you check your conclusion you will clearly understand why. 200km/h is top speed an average car can achieve, yet even when they travel at such a speed, we can see them with relative clarity. Yet even before DBZ began we have evidence that Goku/Kuririn/Piccolo and the rest moved at speeds unperceivable by the common eye.

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MSGohan

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]If that's true, why did it take Gotenks so long to go around the earth a few dozen times? PL and strength + speed don't linearly increase. Besides, speeds above Mach 10 in an atmosphere make bad things happen. On top of that, if you travelled at light speed, you'd constantly see images of yourself behind you, it'd require infinite energy, etc.
No one in DBZ moves at light speed. 1/4 of C max, and even that is pushing it.
[/quote]
We don't know how long it took Gotenks to fly those laps around the world. Only thing we know is that after he did those laps AND took a nap (probably some relaxing) he had less than a minute of the fusion.
Yeah, also going faster then sound should make sonic booms... This is fiction, it doesn't take into account all those effects. In DB Goku could create afterimage of him self, now tell me how fast you need to be to create those. They also go faster than mach 10, what are you trying to imply by saying that Mach 10 would have wired effects in the atmosphere. A speed about 40 000 km/hr is a little above 30 Machs...
Going at the speed of light for an object that has mass, would require infinite energy in the theory of special relativity, but I didn't calculate anything relativisticly, in classical mechanics, it doesn't require infinite energy. If I wanted to calculate relativisticly then I would have to add velocities in that way, which would get their speeds closer and closer to the speed of light, but would never reach it, or go beyond it.
Besides I just showed facts from the manga that their speed doesn't increase linear but GREATER than linear with PL...
EDIT: Btw you can clearly see (Volume 40, chapter 10) that Gotenks have orbits the earth in outer space. Seeing how saiyans need to breath like humans, Gotenks couldn't have spent much time on flying. Because beeing in the (almost) vacuum of space would be so cold, that your lungs would freeze, and you wouldn't survive.
SuperVegetto3:
You should stay to the manga, all those stuff happened only in the anime and was filler.
I know they moved so fast that they could disappear. You can't compare it to a car. You can also see a rocket that gets lunched to the space, and their speed is at least the escape velocity, which is 11 km/s = 39 600 km/hr and you can still see it. But even a slow bullet that travels at 180 m/s = 650 km/hr can't be seen. It's all about speed and size ratio. Besides I do believe they could move much faster than 200 km/hr in DB, because they could catch/dogde bullets. But I was only calculating the (long distance) travel speed (like Roshi's race run, Goku on snakeway and so on). And you can clearly see that this speed increase is NOT linear with PL, otherwise Goku post-Kaio training should be MUCH slower, but he wasn't..

JAIF

So Goku was running for half a year, without stopping to sleep/eat/rest and the like? Hmmm
Sadly, you can't claim that. The only figures we can tell for sure is Roshi's speed and Goku (post Kaio-sama's training) speed. They are enough to produce a formula that connects speed with power level in a linear fashion.

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MSGohan

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"]So Goku was running for half a year, without stopping to sleep/eat/rest and the like? Hmmm
Sadly, you can't claim that. The only figures we can tell for sure is Roshi's speed and Goku (post Kaio-sama's training) speed. They are enough to produce a formula that connects speed with power level in a linear fashion.
[/quote]
I don't even have anything against the linear relation. It would still put SSJ Goku's speed on namek to be a little above the speed of light. I just used that to point out that their INCREASE in speed doesn't DECREASE with PL. So that when you have PL 1 000 and speed 1 000 km/hr, then if you double your PL, your speed would also be atleast doubled.

JAIF

Depends. If you increase your pl naturally, with training and stuff, then speed does increase in a linear fashion. If you raise it with a transformation like Ultra Super Saiya-jinn, it doesn't. That's my guess.

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MSGohan

That doesn't make any sense... It's not like Goku stayed at the same speed like before, Freeza world have mopped the floor with him...

gogeta is # 1

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lolololol