mAIOR

Bravo ultimate saya-jin 5. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one reasoning with physics in this board :p
Now,
for the topic itself, traveling faster than light, it's impossible.
HOWEVER (before you start to burn, agree me) I believe there is a way
we can explain their amazing speed.
Now, for those who don't
know, Galileus physics was proven wrong some time ago wich took some
physics to (already) achieve conclusions that some constants are not
constants and, that light speed didn't always have the value it has
today (being bigger in the first few,... let me see; centuries,
milleniuns,... after that... well in the first moments of the universe
due to Big Bang energy release).
Now, this proves that the speed
of light can change if there is enough energy wich has the actual
PHYSICAL (takes it of the papers as a theory) proof in the universe
horizon (if you take the universe radious and divide it by the universe
age, you'll find out it's impossible to light with it's current speed
to have acomplished such a distance).
Based on this, I ask ye my
forum friends, what better way to supply that kind of energy if not a
super sayan or a nice big kamehame wave??
Meaning, they'll localy
(because of the wave carachteristics of light) increase the speed of
light making it seem (for an external observer) actually faster
than light when in fact they're not.

Cheers...

Buutenks

You can't prove what you just said.It was never stated in the manga that their ki blasts become stornger,it was never stated that htye cna move at light speed,though I do think that thye can move in battle that fast,but I can't prove it.

So it's best that we just leave it how it is.
[quote user="mAIOR"]
Bravo ultimate saya-jin 5. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one reasoning with physics in this board :p
Now, for the topic itself, traveling faster than light, it's impossible. HOWEVER (before you start to burn, agree me) I believe there is a way we can explain their amazing speed.
Now, for those who don't know, Galileus physics was proven wrong some time ago wich took some physics to (already) achieve conclusions that some constants are not constants and, that light speed didn't always have the value it has today (being bigger in the first few,... let me see; centuries, milleniuns,... after that... well in the first moments of the universe due to Big Bang energy release).
Now, this proves that the speed of light can change if there is enough energy wich has the actual PHYSICAL (takes it of the papers as a theory) proof in the universe horizon (if you take the universe radious and divide it by the universe age, you'll find out it's impossible to light with it's current speed to have acomplished such a distance).
Based on this, I ask ye my forum friends, what better way to supply that kind of energy if not a super sayan or a nice big kamehame wave??
Meaning, they'll localy (because of the wave carachteristics of light) increase the speed of light making it seem (for an external observer) actually faster than light when in fact they're not.

Cheers...
[/quote]

Well first we just go by what the character did.If Gotenks went form one galaxy to another one in jus t2 seconds,then it means that he can fly faster than light.Trying ot bring real world stuff into a ficiton universe is a bit stupid.You can do that because it doesn't prove anything.

Now there are no light speed feats,so trying ot prove that thye can fly that fast is pointless becuase as you know dbz is inconsisten.

For e.g. Gohan started flying from his house to his school and after he flies a bit he sys that it will take him 20 minutes to arrive at school.Now Gohan's house is over 1,000 km away from his school,but it took him more than 20 mintues ot get there.Now this would mean that he can't fly faster thna saiayn saga goku who traveled 1,000,000 km in just 2 days.Of course I doubt Gohan was going at max speed,but still he should have gotten there in just 1 mintue if Toriyama wouldn't have screwed up.

hell vegeta went form Piccolo's palace ot where Imperfect Cell was in just 2-3 minutes.Now Piccolo's temple is above a country or so and in that country (or whatever it is) there was the red ribbon army and they needed planes to go to where thatindian lives.And Imperfect Cell was flyign aay form Piccolo's temple.

So I say that Vegeta traveled atleast 3,000 km,so that means that he can fly with 90,000 km/h....it's bit low don't you think?

And there is that base Goku traveled around 12 km in just 4-5 seconds,now kaio-ken 20 is even faster and he outran a explosion,that's fast man.And ssj Goku made a afterimage that lasted 10 seonds or so.

__________________


Legendary Super Saiya-Jin



No one can stand up to Cell....

ultimate sayia-jin 5

1. Yes I did mean that was Raditz top speed Super Tein.
2. In this case use real physics is not bad because this was not contridicted in the manga Buutenks. Also I never said that ther chi blast stay at the same strength, I am well aware that they get stronger, I also never stated that this was fact said it is only a theroy.

JAIF

Hey.
Snake way was 1.000.000 km long. Light travels at 300.000 km/sec. Goku, after he completed training with Kaio-sama, crossed the Snake way at top speed in 2 days, meaning he traveled at 5.78 km/sec. I mean their speed should have increased by approximately 52.000 times to reach the speed of light. Considering power and speed raise at the same rate, and also that Goku at that point had a power level of approximately 8.000, his power must have reached 416.000.000 before he could travel at the speed of light. By my estimations that was not achieved until Buu saga. So here is your answer.

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ultimate sayia-jin 5

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"] Hey.
Snake way was 1.000.000 km long. Light travels at 300.000 km/sec. Goku, after he completed training with Kaio-sama, crossed the Snake way at top speed in 2 days, meaning he traveled at 5.78 km/sec. I mean their speed should have increased by approximately 52.000 times to reach the speed of light. Considering power and speed raise at the same rate, and also that Goku at that point had a power level of approximately 8.000, his power must have reached 416.000.000 before he could travel at the speed of light. By my estimations that was not achieved until Buu saga. So here is your answer.
[/quote] The Serpent Road theroy is a plot hole since the first time it took him 207 days to cross the road which would put him at a mere 201.42 KM Per Hour/ 125.89 Miles Per Hour which is far to slow for Goku to move at speed in which he is not even visible. Also the highest you could put Goku at after training with Kaio is 8,500 other wise the Kaio Ken would have probably allowed Goku to put up a good fight with Vegeta which did not happen. I should also mention that would place Goku after Kaio's training at 1.42 Km/ Per Second which would still be off by about 4 times.

JAIF

[quote user="ultimate sayia-jin 5"]
The Serpent Road theroy is a plot hole since the first time it took him 207 days to cross the road which would put him at a mere 201.42 KM Per Hour/ 125.89 Miles Per Hour which is far to slow for Goku to move at speed in which he is not even visible. Also the highest you could put Goku at after training with Kaio is 8,500 other wise the Kaio Ken would have probably allowed Goku to put up a good fight with Vegeta which did not happen. I should also mention that would place Goku after Kaio's training at 1.42 Km/ Per Second which would still be off by about 4 times.
[/quote]
I know it's impossible for something to become totally invisible to the naked eye by traveling only at 200 km/hour, even if it's a human-size object traveling at that speed. But bear in mind that when Goku was traveling towards Kaio's planet, he was wearing weighted clothing, which, according to Raditz' scouter, would decrease his power (and thus his speed) by approximately 35%. That means Goku's top speed should be about 270 km/hour, at which speed a human can be almost invisible. It's still a little bit slow for leaving an image behind, but that's Dragonball.
Also, I placed Goku's power level when he returned from Kaio's planet at 8000. I don't see why it contradicts your theory. I said approximately 8000, you said 8500 the highest. So what's the issue?

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ultimate sayia-jin 5

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"] [quote user="ultimate sayia-jin 5"]
The Serpent Road theroy is a plot hole since the first time it took him 207 days to cross the road which would put him at a mere 201.42 KM Per Hour/ 125.89 Miles Per Hour which is far to slow for Goku to move at speed in which he is not even visible. Also the highest you could put Goku at after training with Kaio is 8,500 other wise the Kaio Ken would have probably allowed Goku to put up a good fight with Vegeta which did not happen. I should also mention that would place Goku after Kaio's training at 1.42 Km/ Per Second which would still be off by about 4 times.
[/quote]
I know it's impossible for something to become totally invisible to the naked eye by traveling only at 200 km/hour, even if it's a human-size object traveling at that speed. But bear in mind that when Goku was traveling towards Kaio's planet, he was wearing weighted clothing, which, according to Raditz' scouter, would decrease his power (and thus his speed) by approximately 35%. That means Goku's top speed should be about 270 km/hour, at which speed a human can be almost invisible. It's still a little bit slow for leaving an image behind, but that's Dragonball.
Also, I placed Goku's power level when he returned from Kaio's planet at 8000. I don't see why it contradicts your theory. I said approximately 8000, you said 8500 the highest. So what's the issue?
[/quote] Yes I did factor in the weighted clothing, however even with them during dragonball volume 15 Goku moved so fast he could not be seen. Your right approximately 8,000 does not contridict my theroy I was just pointing out that even at the highest possible point the speed would still need to be about four times faster to cross serpent road in 2 days. I was also wondering if your 100% sure that 270 Km/ per hour is enough for a human to be invisble since even though they are far larger airplane are very easy to see dispite the fact moving at much faster speeds.

The Chibi Kiriyama

Friendly reminder: when posting on this thread, please remember that CS does allow you to edit your post, and that double-posting isn't necessary. Thank you.
And just to pitch in- has anyone considered how fast the dormant Namekian Dragon Balls had to have gone to reach Earth from Namek less than two minutes during the Freeza Saga?

JAIF

[quote user="ultimate sayia-jin 5"]Yes I did factor in the weighted clothing, however even with them during dragonball volume 15 Goku moved so fast he could not be seen. Your right approximately 8,000 does not contridict my theroy I was just pointing out that even at the highest possible point the speed would still need to be about four times faster to cross serpent road in 2 days. I was also wondering if your 100% sure that 270 Km/ per hour is enough for a human to be invisble since even though they are far larger airplane are very easy to see dispite the fact moving at much faster speeds.[/quote]
Well I can't be 100% sure (I haven't seen anyone run at that speed-LOL), but I can say I'm pretty much certain about it. I mean when a Formula 1 car runs in front of you at 340 km/hour you can only see a blurred image (I've been to Formula 1 racing), and consider that a human is much smaller than a Formula car. Well he might not be completely invisible but anyway... As for the power level how did you come to the conclusion that 8000 is not enough to cross the Serpent Road at full speed in two days?
About the Dragonballs they were linked telepathetically to the Nameccian Guru, and that's how they came to the earth in the first place. Anyway I don't think Dragonballs could withstand a space travel of such lenght-they would break.

__________________

ultimate sayia-jin 5

Chibi Kiriyama if that post was directed at me and I double posted some where in the thread I apologize I probably accidently hit the post button twice.

SuperVegetto3 Alright I belive you that is likley to be enough to move at invisble speed. Goku got to Kaio's planet in 208 days, since Kaio stated he 158 days to train with him and Goku had year to start, so here is the formula 1 Million divided by 60, then divided by 60 agian divided by 24 divided by 208 tells us Goku moves at .055KM per seconds by this theroy multipling that by 60 twice tells us he would 200.32 KM per Hour. since Goku was wearing weighted clothing his power level would be 334. (which decreses his speed by 20% not 35% I figured you might want to know that since you guessed 35% percent however 416 to 334 is a 20% difference.) Any way dividing 8,500 by 334 tells us Goku increased his speed 25.45 Times which puts him at 1.41 Kilometers per second. to travel 1,000,000 Kilometers in 2 days you must move 5.78 Kilometers Per seconds as you pointed out before this puts Goku off by roughly 4 times. keep in my mind I used 8,500 because it is the max possible number as I pointed out earlier.

Buutenks

[quote user="ultimate sayia-jin 5"]Chibi Kiriyama if that post was directed at me and I double posted some where in the thread I apologize I probably accidently hit the post button twice.

SuperVegetto3 Alright I belive you that is likley to be enough to move at invisble speed. Goku got to Kaio's planet in 208 days, since Kaio stated he 158 days to train with him and Goku had year to start, so here is the formula 1 Million divided by 60, then divided by 60 agian divided by 24 divided by 208 tells us Goku moves at .055KM per seconds by this theroy multipling that by 60 twice tells us he would 200.32 KM per Hour. since Goku was wearing weighted clothing his power level would be 334. (which decreses his speed by 20% not 35% I figured you might want to know that since you guessed 35% percent however 416 to 334 is a 20% difference.) Any way dividing 8,500 by 334 tells us Goku increased his speed 25.45 Times which puts him at 1.41 Kilometers per second. to travel 1,000,000 Kilometers in 2 days you must move 5.78 Kilometers Per seconds as you pointed out before this puts Goku off by roughly 4 times. keep in my mind I used 8,500 because it is the max possible number as I pointed out earlier.
[/quote]


I think that was to me...sorry Chibi Kiriyama.I apologize for double-posting.


Well Goku slept a bit too and IIRC he slept in the manga as well,so that's why it took him half a year.And their flying speed is slower than their fighting sped.This is proved when it takes Goku half a year to travel snake way,but he moves at speds that Piccolo daimao,Master Roshi and Tien couldn't see.Now Master Rosh ican move at invisisble speed,Piccolo daimao is way faster and Mr. Popo is faster than Piccolo daimao yet he isn't faster thna end of db Goku.

So their flying speed doesn't really matter,their battle speed matters.

__________________


Legendary Super Saiya-Jin



No one can stand up to Cell....

MSGohan

Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Goku made it across the snakeway in 1 day? Remember the Saiyans were supposed to arrive the "next day", and Kaio-sama said that by his training he would've made it in 2 days, that is a day too late. But Goku did arrive on time, he made it in 1 day. You can find this in the manga v18, ch08.
So Goku's speed would be about 40.000 km/h on average. His powerlevel when he wasn't powered up was 5.000. But we know that when Goku uses Kaio-ken times N , then his speed get's multiplied by that factor N. But since his powerlevel also increase by that factor, then speed most increase linearly with PL (as SuperVegetto suggested I think). Since the powerlevel of a SSJ Goku was 150 million, which is 30.000 times greater then his powerlevel in the saiyan saga, then his speed simply also should've increased by that factor; 30.000 * 40.000 km/h = 1.2*10^9 km/h = 1.11c. Which is FTL. And I didn't even needed to use the fact that Mr. Popo stated that Goku should move faster than lightning. Lightning can have speeds anywhere between 1/10 c to 1/2c.
Now people usually say that there are simply no feats at all that can confirm that. And many uses argument like Gotenks feats to argue against FTL speed in DBZ. But almost all of them can't be considered as speed feats. Like people using the argument, that Chou (or Mystic) Buu took too long to get to them, arguing that he was no where near the speed of light, because of that. But that can't really be considered as speed feats. Surly when Buu could see them, Vegeta had time to take on the earrings and they had time to say something to each other, while Buu was closing in with an energy blast ready to fire it at them. You can find this in volume 42 ch01. Now surly if Buu could see them, then he couldn't have been every far away. Even if he was about 10 km away (you sure need to be closer than that to see a person), then if his speed was what Goku's speed on snakeway was, he could've made it to them in less than a second... This really shows there was never meant to be any speed feats in such situationen. The same arguments can be used if you consider how Goku couldn't save Gohan & co. Goku could've made it to them and Mr. Satan in again less than a second, seeing how Gohan & co. were just below of where they were floating on air. So maybe Buu destroyed the earth in less than a second? But him talking to Vegeta suggests otherwise. But then again Gohan & co. were supposed to die, and Goku and Vegeta were supposed to fuse, those situationen are just to give the reader some excitement and tension, and can't really be considered as speed feats. Mr. Satan could see Kid Buu flying towards him (to attack him) and he could see that. Even if Buu moved as fast a bullet (which is WAY TOO SLOW for DBZ characters), then Mr. Satan wouldn't even have time to think and react to that.
PS: As to weather they actually move that fast (FTL), will only remain as a speculation and an oppinion. But it certianly isn't impossible. And btw the idea that their long-distance-travel speed is slower then their actual fighting seems to explain alot. So Goku could maybe move faster than 40.000 km/h in the saiyan saga on his base form, in the fights.

SaiyajinPerfection

Now reading my volume 42, I think Vegerot moved faster then light, Vegerot says something about Buu not being able to detect him because he was using sight alone. He states that "the trick is to feel the movement of ki." From what I can see from this quote is that Vegerot can't be detected from seeing the movement of light from the Ki (What they had been doing before the Buu saga), simply because he's too fast. He can only be detected from sensing the Ki movement. (Pg 33).

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jplaya2023

who is vegerot????

MSGohan

Probably Vegetto.