ultimate sayia-jin 5

One thing people are forgetting is that even if Gotenks did fly around the world 24-36 times in a second it is still an inconsistancy. Roshi Kamehameha traveled the distance between earth and the moon in about a second this event happpened much before any other traveling event that has been mentioned. Roshi's kamehameha is comonly estimated at 350 so based of the 115 Billion power level I gave Pre RoSaT Gotenks this would allow him to travel 10.4 Light years a second meaning he could travel between earth and proxima centuari 2.4 Times in a second. Some people may say the Roshi thing was a plot device, however it still happened and should be taken seriously in my opinion.

Buutenks

[quote user="demonkingpiccolo"][quote user="Buutenks"][quote user="demonkingpiccolo"] I think that the only lightspeed movement occurs when dodging or attacking, something that doesn't consist of traveling long distances (like flying around the world for example).
Also Gotenks is extremely pig-headed, he could've been lying when he said that he took a nap in the time it took Piccolo to find him. He could've also been lying about traveling around the world a few dozen times.
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I agree with the first part,but I don't agree with the second one.Those were Toriyama's wrods,he wanted to make Gotenks seem impressive.This was stated,you cannot ignore it and say that maybe he was lying so it took him 29 minutes to make his trip because it's not true.He wasn't lying and Toriyama wanted to show us what happened in those 29 minutes and if you look in the manga Gotenks went 7-9 times around the planet,so no he wasn't lying.

If Gotenks went around the world a few times in 29 minutes(which he didn't because he said that he took a nap and he can't survive long in space) then it means that he cant fly faster than Kaio-ken 10 Goku,Freeza,ssj Goku,Vegeta,Gohan etc.So no Gotenks wasn't lying when he made his statement and he wasn't lying when he said that he went a dozen times around the planet because you could see that he went at least 7 times around the planet.

[/quote]
Well, I somewhat agree with that, but you also have to realize that 7-9 times is NOWHERE near a few Dozen. Gotenks Stated that he had gone around the word a few dozen times, not just one. A few dozen can range anywhere from 24 to perhaps 144 or even more then that. I agree that Gotenks is impressive, Toriyama did want us to know that, But I doubt that he could encircle the world a few dozen times in a half hour. I truly believe he was bluffing when he told Piccolo that. Maybe one dozen or perhaps less is more like it.
PS: Welcome to MFG
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Yeah but Gotenks didn't went in half an hour,he went in either a couple of seconds or 1-2 minutes(due to him not being able to survive in space) and he took a nap.

Gotenks went 5 around the planet,two of them were twice as big as earth,so that means 7 times.If Gotenks did it one second then it's light sped,if Gotenks did it 1 minute then it's not light speed.

Thanks.

Edit:Now from here on it's just spectaculation on how much time it took Gotenks to go around the planet,I know that he went in one minute or 2 because he can't breath in space,but I don't know if he went in 1second or 2,5 seconds or 56 seconds etc.So you can make out of this what you want,but it still didn't took him half an hour it took him from 1 second to 1-2 minutes,this is(again)because he can't breath in space.

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Legendary Super Saiya-Jin



No one can stand up to Cell....

Buutenks

[quote user="params7"]hehe, welcome to MFG Buutenks. Good to see you here as well.


And let me remind you all, the scan clearly shows Gotenks circling earth in its outer orbit, the space.
Saiyans share human traits of the respiaratory system, that would mean Gotneks being any longer than a second or two would've frozen to death.
(This is explain nicely in the movie Mission To Mars)
And some of Gotenks orbit's have any diameter to fit in two earth's completely.
That is a faster than light speed feat.

Though, Chibi got what I wanted to say. Fights were being done over in a second during the 21-22nd Budokai's. If that's the speed Kid Goku was fighting in, just imagine how fast end DBZ character would be fighting at.
In short, their fighting/reflex speeds in way, way faster than what they travel at.
Their flying speed is not dependant on the amount of power/Ki.
(For example, Piccolo had a lower powerlevel than Goku, yet he said Goku was no match for him in flying speed when they were going after Raditz)




There's not much evidence in the manga, but there is plenty evidence in the anime which would support them being light speed.

During the training with Kami, Kid Goku had managed to dodge several lightning. And lightnings travel at 1/3-1/4 the Speed Of Light. In the manga, Mr.Popo says Goku would have to be faster than lightning and than moves really fast. Also this only exists in the anime, but King Kai wasn't able to sense Freeza and ssj Goku go all out on each other, when he could sense FTL spacepods of Nappa and Vegeta.
So at least in the anime/non-canon world it can actually be established they do move FTL (there are tons more evidence of Ki Blasts being faster t han light also). Sadly there isn't much evidence to side this in the canon manga.






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Good to see you as well.

I want to say that in the anime there was no scene where King Ki couldn't sense ssj Goku and Freeza.King Kai's antennas exploded when Goku fired a kameha at Freeza.But this doesn't mean that they can't fight at light speed,they were moving at light speed in the Cell saga and not the Freeza saga.

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No one can stand up to Cell....

xTaken

This that would happen if they travelled at light speed:
An infinite amount of images of themselves would be seen behind them.
The light containing the images of them would be seen first - so you would actually be seeing them from a few seconds ago, meaning that they would have to catch up to themselves.
They would need unlimited and infinite energy.
At speeds that fast, various things would disintegrate.
In the anime, there are no sonic booms... in the comics, there might be, but there's no SFX for them.
If they travelled at light speed, no one would die via ki blasts.

In all seriousness, still, the fastest I think anyone could travel is ~30,000 km/s... and even THAT'S pushing it a bit.

Buutenks

[quote user="xTaken"]This that would happen if they travelled at light speed:
An infinite amount of images of themselves would be seen behind them.
The light containing the images of them would be seen first - so you would actually be seeing them from a few seconds ago, meaning that they would have to catch up to themselves.
They would need unlimited and infinite energy.
At speeds that fast, various things would disintegrate.
In the anime, there are no sonic booms... in the comics, there might be, but there's no SFX for them.
If they travelled at light speed, no one would die via ki blasts.

In all seriousness, still, the fastest I think anyone could travel is ~30,000 km/s... and even THAT'S pushing it a bit.


[/quote]

You have no proof that they fly that fast,maybe Gotenks went even faster than that,you don't know and you cannot disprove it.And stop with the infinity thing.Supes can fly faster than light,Falsh can move even faster ,so don't bring real life science in a fictional universe.

Edit:But maybe they don't fly that fast,but they do fight that fast(well ssj3 fights that fast,I doubt a ssj2 or lower could)

And there's Toriyama's interview and he said that they got from running at super speed to moving at light speed.This is moving not flying.So I say they could move that fast but they sure can't fly that fast.

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Legendary Super Saiya-Jin



No one can stand up to Cell....

xTaken

You have no proof of anything either. And you take things to heart too much. For example, would you think that Bulma could design a sqaure circle just because she says she can build anything? I just estimated those speeds, but they seem accurate enough for me.

I doubt you could prove that they fight that fast, you're just estimating, and have nothing to base anything on. 30,000 km/s seems fast enough for me.

Gozar

It may seem fast enough when thinking on a normal person's level, but not when you take into account how much their power increases throughout DBZ.

__________________


"You hate the fact that your powerless to stop me, that
your completly outmatched, well imagine feeling the way you do now all
of the time like the people of this planet do. FOOLS, how do you think
my Master Gohan felt when you ganged up on him in the rain and he had
no way out. Well now it's your turn, I hope you enjoy it."-Trunks

Vegeta-the most powerful sayajin

[quote user="ultimate sayia-jin 5"]One thing people are forgetting is that even if Gotenks did fly around the world 24-36 times in a second it is still an inconsistancy. Roshi Kamehameha traveled the distance between earth and the moon in about a second this event happpened much before any other traveling event that has been mentioned. Roshi's kamehameha is comonly estimated at 350 so based of the 115 Billion power level I gave Pre RoSaT Gotenks this would allow him to travel 10.4 Light years a second meaning he could travel between earth and proxima centuari 2.4 Times in a second. Some people may say the Roshi thing was a plot device, however it still happened and should be taken seriously in my opinion.[/quote]

If that's the case Vegeta's galick gun, him being only yards high, would have reached the earth in an instant. But Goku managed to charge and launch a Kamehameha to counter it. Either Goku has some SERIOUS skill or ki blasts don't follow the "the stronger it is, the faster it is" rule. Roshi could have done the Kamehameha in a way that it traveled through space at ultra fast speeds because no other ki blast ever matched this speed(except probaby Freeza's Death Ray)

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The Mighty Goku

[quote user="xTaken"]You have no proof of anything either. And you take things to heart too much. For example, would you think that Bulma could design a sqaure circle just because she says she can build anything? I just estimated those speeds, but they seem accurate enough for me.

I doubt you could prove that they fight that fast, you're just estimating, and have nothing to base anything on. 30,000 km/s seems fast enough for me.
[/quote]
Here is some proof.
Goku traveled snake way in 2 days. Snakeway is 1,000,000 km long. 600,000 miles long.
So that means Goku traveled at exactly 3.5 miles a second. Now, he was suppressed at a power level of 5,000, so if you now if you count him during the Namek Saga. He had a power level of 3,000,000 fighting Frieza, so using the math from his snakeway travel, Goku now travels at 2,100 miles per second. And then as a Super Saiyan, 50x stronger/faster...he travels at 105,000 miles a second.
So going by LSSJ 7's power level list.....SS3 Goku against Kid Buu had a power level of 360,000,000,000....now if that is the case, then Goku during the Buu Saga as a SSJ3 can travel at....2,520,000mps....thats 13.5x faster than light...
somebody could re-check and see if I mis-calculated...but thats the # I got.

SS2 Vegeto

[quote user="xTaken"]What I said before:
"I'm still not convinced that anyone, even Super Vegetto, travels at
light speed. At most, I think the fastest anyone can travel is 1/10c,
which is about 70% of the Earth in a second (30,000km per second). I
think that Gotenks traveled the Earth at around 2520km/s, but that of
course is assuming a lot of things."
I
stand by what I said. 2520 = 1/20th cleared in a second. A SECOND!
Isn't that fast enough for you people?! That's a quarter of Canada! In
a second!

[/quote]
By
that, you'd be
completely ignoring a panel showing 5 full rotations....unless you
assume that streaks of light just hang there. Considering your
statement about "leaving images of themselves behind"....in Dragonball,
Roshi and Kuririn fought like....a good bit, in what appeared to be a
flash of light. In the Cell saga, Goku and Cell couldn't be seen at all
by normal people, other than when they ceased motion, and were even
very difficult for some of the Zet Senshi to follow. SSJ Gotenks is
leaving bright streaks of light behind......seen from space. To me, it
would seem highly illogical that some of the stronger characters in the
Buu saga wouldn't be at the speed of light, atleast.
You
could assume, however, that Akira Toriyama just didn't think about
things. But the explanation you used wouldn't work in this case.

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Gozar

[quote user="The Mighty Goku"] [quote user="xTaken"]You have no proof of anything either. And you take things to heart too much. For example, would you think that Bulma could design a sqaure circle just because she says she can build anything? I just estimated those speeds, but they seem accurate enough for me.

I doubt you could prove that they fight that fast, you're just estimating, and have nothing to base anything on. 30,000 km/s seems fast enough for me.
[/quote]
Here is some proof.
Goku traveled snake way in 2 days. Snakeway is 1,000,000 km long. 600,000 miles long.
So that means Goku traveled at exactly 3.5 miles a second. Now, he was suppressed at a power level of 5,000, so if you now if you count him during the Namek Saga. He had a power level of 3,000,000 fighting Frieza, so using the math from his snakeway travel, Goku now travels at 2,100 miles per second. And then as a Super Saiyan, 50x stronger/faster...he travels at 105,000 miles a second.
So going by LSSJ 7's power level list.....SS3 Goku against Kid Buu had a power level of 360,000,000,000....now if that is the case, then Goku during the Buu Saga as a SSJ3 can travel at....2,520,000mps....thats 13.5x faster than light...
somebody could re-check and see if I mis-calculated...but thats the # I got.
[/quote]
That's the exact theory I have used in the past.

__________________


"You hate the fact that your powerless to stop me, that
your completly outmatched, well imagine feeling the way you do now all
of the time like the people of this planet do. FOOLS, how do you think
my Master Gohan felt when you ganged up on him in the rain and he had
no way out. Well now it's your turn, I hope you enjoy it."-Trunks

The Chibi Kiriyama

Just to ask, how fast would Goku have to be in order for him to leave an afterimage in Muscle Tower that a guard shoots while he's behind said guard in actuality?

SaiyajinPerfection

In order to create an after image to an opponent that is in close proximity, you need to move at a pace that is close to light speed. Your image must take the time to reach your opponent's eyes (who was in close proximity every time), so virtually, no time is lost. But in order to just disappear (like they do while travling SHORT distances [like I said before] you don't need to travel at the speed of light, just at a speed where the opponent can't follow.) During Dragonball, The distance traveled from point A to point B inside Muscle Tower was very short (only a few meters or so) so it is a possibility that Goku could have been moving at the speed of light for a split second. (Remember, Goku couldn't fly at this point, so his thrust was not constant.)
If Gotenks was truly as fast as the speed of light, he could've traveled around the Earth roughly 6 times per second. (The Earth is roughly 30,000 miles in circumfrence, light travels at 186,000 miles per second) 30/186 = 6.2. But it only shows 5 streaks in the panel, nowhere near the 111,600 times that he could've gone around in is half hour
(6.2 x60 =3,720) (Seconds x 60 = 1 minute) (and then that times 30 to make a half hour) (which equals 111,600) (A few Dozen times is NOT that, a few dozen is much lower). And I don't actually believe that Gotenks took a nap, he was a Super Saiyan when Piccolo found him, and the only Saiyans that were able to sustain Super Saiyan state while asleep were Goku and Gohan during the Cell saga. (And I don't even think that fact was canon).

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Buutenks

[quote user="xTaken"]You have no proof of anything either. And you take things to heart too much. For example, would you think that Bulma could design a sqaure circle just because she says she can build anything? I just estimated those speeds, but they seem accurate enough for me.

I doubt you could prove that they fight that fast, you're just estimating, and have nothing to base anything on. 30,000 km/s seems fast enough for me.
[/quote]



About them fighting faster than they fly,well Raditz can fly at mach 3 but his moving speed is way faster than that.He can move faster than PIccolo and Goku who were moving so fast that Tien and Master Roshi couldn't see(and Tien can move so fast that Master Roshi can see him,who can make alot of stuff in one second).If you remove their flying from them they can still move at super speed.And Vegeta needed to go ssj to get to Cell fast and Cell was 3000-4000 km from Piccolo's temple(or maybe more,seeing how kaio-ken 20 Goku can fly with 160 km/s,so it must've been more),but I doubt he can fight that slow because than it means that he moves slower than ssj Goku who can fly with 400 km/s.So it means that he was taking his time or maybe it was far more than 4000 km,who knows,I mean it took him around 2 minutes to get there.

But I have no real prove that they fight faster than they fly,all I have is that it takes them a bit of time to get to some places.For e.g. it took Gohan 20 minutes to go 6,000 km(that girl in Gohan's class said that it takes a jet 5 hours to get from Gohan's house to his school),now you could say that Gohan was just flying with 1% of his power or was taking his time or he didn't wanted to waste any of his energy.
But like i said,I have no proof that they move faster in battle.

__________________


Legendary Super Saiya-Jin



No one can stand up to Cell....

Buutenks

[quote user="demonkingpiccolo"]In order to create an after image to an opponent that is in close proximity, you need to move at a pace that is close to light speed. Your image must take the time to reach your opponent's eyes (who was in close proximity every time), so virtually, no time is lost. But in order to just disappear (like they do while travling SHORT distances [like I said before] you don't need to travel at the speed of light, just at a speed where the opponent can't follow.) During Dragonball, The distance traveled from point A to point B inside Muscle Tower was very short (only a few meters or so) so it is a possibility that Goku could have been moving at the speed of light for a split second. (Remember, Goku couldn't fly at this point, so his thrust was not constant.)
If Gotenks was truly as fast as the speed of light, he could've traveled around the Earth roughly 6 times per second. (The Earth is roughly 30,000 miles in circumfrence, light travels at 186,000 miles per second) 30/186 = 6.2. But it only shows 5 streaks in the panel, nowhere near the 111,600 times that he could've gone around in is half hour
(6.2 x60 =3,720) (Seconds x 60 = 1 minute) (and then that times 30 to make a half hour) (which equals 111,600) (A few Dozen times is NOT that, a few dozen is much lower). And I don't actually believe that Gotenks took a nap, he was a Super Saiyan when Piccolo found him, and the only Saiyans that were able to sustain Super Saiyan state while asleep were Goku and Gohan during the Cell saga. (And I don't even think that fact was canon).


[/quote]

Gotenks stated in the manga that he took a nap and Piccolo didn't said that he was lying.If it took him 29 minutes to go 5 times arond the world then it means that he isn't faster than Goku from the saiyan saga or Goku from the Freeza saga.So he must've taken a nap and he stated that he took.But still if you do think that it took him 29 minutes than it means that he's the slowest character in dbz,well he's probably faster than Raditz.Goku in the Freeza saga went over islands in one second,now when he went ss he was 50 times faster,this means that he's faster than ssj Gotenks if it took Gotenks 29 minutes to go around the world.

Gotenks probably went to normal when he slept and when he got up he went ssj again,that's the only explanation.

Edit:And ssj Goku made a after image against 100% freeza,Goku(this was probably kaio-ken 10) in the Freeza saga outran a explosion.Goku went over islands in one second.And Freeza was moving so fast that vegeta Piccolo and the others couldn't see him.They couldn't even see Freeza's death beam and ssj Goku dodged it.And ssj Goku was moving so fast that Vegeta and the others could barely see him.So Gotenks did took a nap or you could say that Gotenks is the second slowest character in dbz.So going by what you say,Gotenks cannot fly as fast as Goku form the saiyan saga.So the only explanation,Gotenks wasn't lying when he said that he took a nap and he was in space,do you know what this means?it means that he must've made his trip in less than 1-2 minutes or he would have died.So Gotenks made his trip from 1 second to 1-2 minutes. So your theory is wrong,Gotenks took a nap and he was in space.

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No one can stand up to Cell....