gogeta is # 1

<blockquote>I wasn't refering to you. Sorry if you thought so.
It was about arguments like "Why did Buu take so long to get too the lookout, or Goku & Vegeta" or "Why they couldn't save Gohan & co. before the planet exploded" and many more. I consider those as lame, and I explained why.
</blockquote>Oh, I am VERY sorry.

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lolololol

ram9

saiyans cant breath in space is not an asumption,
take for example,you can hold your breath under water for about half-minutes and it comes to your mind to try swim 7 feet deep 10 miles long in the sea without gasping for air.then what if you did that back and forth a few quintillion times,so are you telling me that is not faster than light.
that goes for ssjgotenks,what fraction of seconds it takes before a creature die in space since ssjgotenks can't survive outside the atmosphere,well ssjgotenks flew around the world outside the atmosphere few dozen times.we didnt know ssjgotenks exact speed but this is so clear,faster than light.
ssjgotenks was clearly faster tha light,unless prove me that canon saiyans can breathe in space.
asking why piccolo took almost half an hour before he to catch up:
1.)ssjgotenks went from all different direction around the world few dozen times makes piccolo confused were he' go plus the fact that ssjgotenks was faster.
2.)as proven when they thought that gohan was killed by fatbuu coz they cant read his ki, but actually it was only memontarilly down coz gohan was in the brink of death (his ki was lower than asleep and outcold).so ssjgotenks ki was down when he take a nap but not on the same level with gohan at that time.
3.)wondering why ssjgotenks take a nap as ssj coz he's not trained as fpssj,well he only take a nap and he didnt sleep everyday as ssj coz if that happens that was a diffrent story.
just because they did not state that they move at speed of light doesnt mean that they did not."action speaks louder tha words"
remember when vegeta and cell fist fought,vegeta shoot him with final flash and that stray blast went all over another galaxy coz the spark signifies as a star when it went on outer space far- away, dont tell me that ssj2gohan cant dodge that.
freeza's beams dont tell that it was not light speed.dodge by ssjgoku
piccolo blew up a moon dont tell me that only travel at the speed of sound,coz it take 18 mins before a sound reaches moon.raditz dodge his light of death without any preparation time and light of death isfaster/stronger than the blast he used to blew up the moon
dont you ever compare their speed when there was no speed feats coz that also happens in flash and superman.
just because they did not state that they move at the speed of light,doesnt mean that they did not.
"action speaks louder than words"

MSGohan

[quote user="ram9"]piccolo blew up a moon dont tell me that only travel at the speed of sound,coz it take 18 mins before a sound reaches moon.[/quote]
Correction with the speed of sound it would take about 13 days to reach the moon!!
The key argument about Gotenks feat is, that it is possible that he did all sort of wired stuff on earth (nap, fooling around, testing his power and ect. There is 2 panels showing him fooling around) and wasted alot of time. But it is not possible that he spent minutes outside the atmosphere.

SaiyajinPerfection

I don't think that Gotenks could actually go the speed of light, the only person who I thought could go the speed of light was Vegetto. He even states himself that he can't be followed with the eye, you need to sense the movement of ki. Buu was trying to follow his movements but couldn't because he couldn't see him. That is a dead giveaway that Vegetto could move at, or faster then light.
I don't believe that Gotenks moved at light speed, and I don't believe that the characters by the even Cell saga moved anywhere near light speed. Take the example of Piccolo and how long it took him to catch up with Gotenks. Going by the power level theory and how it ties in with speed, If Piccolo moved near light speed as some suggest, it would've taken him seconds to catch up to Gotenks, not nearly a half hour like it did. What was Piccolo doing in that half hour?

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JAIF

But a human doesn't have to move at lightspeed in order to be invisible. Just 1/100 of lightspeed is more than enough. Plus, many a time has it been stated that the characters couldn't follow a battle visually due to extreme speed.

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SaiyajinPerfection

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"]But a human doesn't have to move at lightspeed in order to be invisible. Just 1/100 of lightspeed is more than enough. Plus, many a time has it been stated that the characters couldn't follow a battle visually due to extreme speed.[/quote]
Correct, but you also have to realize that the characters don't actually see the physical forms of the fighters, they only see the light energy they emit. This is how Piccolo told Gohan to watch the battle between Yamcha and the Saibaman, he couldn't see them or even hear them otherwise. If Buu was following Vegetto by using this method, then it would make perfect sense why he couldn't see him if Vegetto did move at or faster then light speed, considering that the characters are already borderline of light speed by the Buu saga. Vegetto said he had to sense the movement of ki in order to follow him. I agree this doesn't prove Vegetto'"light speed", but it's the best thing I could come up with.

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ram9

In the universe of Dragon Ball, a being's Power Level is a measure of their destructive or fighting ability,excluding bloodline ability coz it did never measures in the canon manga if combined with strength,energy,speed and skills yes it can be measured just like transformation which uses energy. Destructive ability is for strength and energy. Fighting ability is for speed and skills.
To calculate dbz speed it can be calculated through power level,since speed is linear at their power level.
How it is possible?
remember the namek arc were it shows that goku&rsquo;s unsuppressed power level was 90,000 and when he use kaiohken x2 then it becomes 180,000 which is x2 of 90,000. So it is true that their speed was linear at their power level if not then kaiohken x2 would not be 180,000 which is x2 of 90,000 since kaiohken multiply speed and power then it is linear, that was proven right at that arc through power level.


ssjgotenks circling the globe:
as for piccolo took almost 30 mins. in finding ssjgotenks,you dont need to use the circumference of the earth here.
where do piccolo finding gotenks at that time?
on the EARTH they were in,so what's the surface area of the earth?
surface area of the earth is about 510,065,600 km&sup2;, the speed of light is 300,000 km/s and the fact that ssjgotenks took a nap makes him harder to find the exact coordinate since his ki was down.
to refresh your memory it took buu few seconds in finding goku and vegeta.
note that even if you can see someone in the telescope you still cant tell the exact coordinate of that person same goes for ki reading.
to add more no one can hold their breath in space that's why it only took ssjgotenks less than a second in circling the earth few dozen times.and there's nothing to support your claim that he lied and cocky there.
escape velocity- speed in order to move away the atmosphere of the earth is 49,000 km/h (25,000 mi/h)
i still believe that they fight near lightspeed on the early dbz coz saiyan arc-piccolo simply blew the moon in a blink of an eye.
the moon's average distance on the earth is about 384,403 km and the speed of sound moves at 344 mi/s.raditz simply dodge piccolo's makankosapo (which is faster and stronger) without any preparation time.
they're already above supersonic speed at the saiyan arc.
im basing my evidence on the manga not on opinion

JAIF

Oh well. I'm too bored to do it so if you're really interested try this: calculate Muten Roshi's speed at 139 (when he run that distance on early Dragonball), assume speed rises linearly with power level and multiply that speed with 1,000,000 to have Frieza's (final form) speed, then you can use a power level listing (not one that says Cell = infinity) to calculate the rest

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MSGohan

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"]Oh well. I'm too bored to do it so if you're really interested try this: calculate Muten Roshi's speed at 139 (when he run that distance on early Dragonball), assume speed rises linearly with power level and multiply that speed with 1,000,000 to have Frieza's (final form) speed, then you can use a power level listing (not one that says Cell = infinity) to calculate the rest
[/quote]
It has to be obvious that in dragon ball movement speed >> running/flying speed. You certainly have to move faster than 17 m/s (Roshi's speed) to be invisible to the human eye in comparision athletes sprint at a speed about 10 m/s.
I used the exact same argument ram9 used, to argue that speed does increase linear with PL, in my first post in this thread. Well my example was with Goku's PL in the saiyan saga, where Kaio-ken showed to increase PL by the given factor. And since Kaio-ken multiplies everything (including speed) by that given factor, speed had to increase linear with PL. But I used Goku's (flying) speed on his return on snakeway which was about 11.6 km/s, to deduce that he should be at about light speed (about 1.1c) when he went SSj on namek. But then I saw the stupid plot where Goku mentions that he doesn't have time to reach his spaceship so he would be taken Freeza's instead... I mean WTF was up with that? How far did they travel away from Goku's spaceship anyway? But that "stupid" plot ruins the idea that he was light speed at that point. IMO Akira Toriyama wasn't thinking about speed, that plot was just made to make us believe that Goku would die...
How the hell was Freeza planing on "flying" away from the planet? Where would he go after that, if he was no were near light speed. He wouldn't be able to make interstellar travel without at least being close to light speed.
Good arguments ram9

ram9

dude there was no stupid plot in freeza arc,why?
1.)we dont how big the planet namek
2.)finding his spaceship and circling around the planet is two different things coz in finding something you'll need to use the surface area of the given place,its not easy to find the exact coordinate.i already mentioned these.
the only stupid plot in dragonball is about the drawing at the early chapters which also happens in dc/marvel in the early 1990's.
about the topic,it was clearly shown in the saiyan arc that raditz was capable to dodge piccolo's attack without any preparation time which i dont usually saw in dc/marvel.note that attack was faster compare to the other blast the blew up the moon.

MSGohan

[quote user="ram9"]dude there was no stupid plot in freeza arc,why?
1.)we dont how big the planet namek
2.)finding his spaceship and circling around the planet is two different things coz in finding something you'll need to use the surface area of the given place,its not easy to find the exact coordinate.i already mentioned these.
the only stupid plot in dragonball is about the drawing at the early chapters which also happens in dc/marvel in the early 1990's.
about the topic,it was clearly shown in the saiyan arc that raditz was capable to dodge piccolo's attack without any preparation time which i dont usually saw in dc/marvel.note that attack was faster compare to the other blast the blew up the moon.
[/quote]
It was the plot where at the last moments of Namek Goku mentions (to Freeza) that he is taking Freeza's ship, because there is not enough time to make it to his own...
Well I guess those two points of yours can explain why.
Indeed Raditz dogded Piccolo's most powerful attack with a few meters of distance between the 2. And Piccolo easily destroyed the moon with a random blast that reached the moon in a matter of seconds! This indeed shows movement speed (dogding and similar movements) >>>> Flying/running speed. And the statement from Mr. Popo in DB, where he says that Goku has to move faster than lightning, seems more likely to be meant litteraly than just a metaphor or a figure of speech as some claim. So they could maybe move that fast in early DBZ, but couldn't run/fly that fast.
If you think about it, an athelete may be faster than a martial artist in a sprint, but when it comes to movements in battle, that is dogding/kicking/punching/blocking and ect., then the martial artist is most likely to be much faster than the athelete, despite that he is not as fast as the athelete in running/sprinting.
The same is in DBZ, they could dogde blasts fast enough to reach the moon in a matter of seconds, within a few meters of distance, but they didn't fly/run that fast.

Aken_Bosch

Still trying, huh?
1) He didn't dodge it, Piccolo MISSED.
2) In the cartoon, it reached the moon in 8 seconds, and it took the moon 4 seconds to blow up. That's about 4 times slower than light.
3) If he could move faster than lightning, then Goku's strength is a plothole. Do you know how much something weighs when it moves that fast? Yet he was training with 2 ton weights as an adult? Goku definately didn't move faster than lightning in DB. Besides, this would also take a ridiculous amount of energy, to move faster than lightning.
4) I agree with this, but not as fast as you say.
5) I don't think they dodged it, I think they react very quickly - think of Spiderman. He doesn't exactly dodge light-speed blasts, he starts moving away slightly before the other person fires, since he reacts faster than they do. By the time he dodges, the other person has already fired, and missed, and then has realized that he missed. This is how I think dodging in DBZ works, and it makes the most sense.

Tyro

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]1) He didn't dodge it, Piccolo MISSED.[/quote]
Piccolo: "He...He side-stepped it...!! But no one...can move so quickly..."

MSGohan

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]Still trying, huh?
1) He didn't dodge it, Piccolo MISSED.[/quote]
Tyro answered this.
You're still trying? Just leave this discussion if you don't like idea that DBZ characters can move that fast...
You can't use the plot from the anime to deceide the time it took the blast to reach the moon. Beside the blast reaching the moon in about 8 seconds would mean that the blast is about lightning speed...
If we take lightning speed to be 1/10 of the light speed, then the "mass" would increase by a factor of 1.0050378, which is pretty small... So 2 tons mass would be like 2.01 tons..
Spiderman has his Spidey-senses, which alerts him before something happens.

JAIF

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"] Still trying, huh?
1) He didn't dodge it, Piccolo MISSED.
2) In the cartoon, it reached the moon in 8 seconds, and it took the moon 4 seconds to blow up. That's about 4 times slower than light.
3) If he could move faster than lightning, then Goku's strength is a plothole. Do you know how much something weighs when it moves that fast? Yet he was training with 2 ton weights as an adult? Goku definately didn't move faster than lightning in DB. Besides, this would also take a ridiculous amount of energy, to move faster than lightning.
4) I agree with this, but not as fast as you say.
5) I don't think they dodged it, I think they react very quickly - think of Spiderman. He doesn't exactly dodge light-speed blasts, he starts moving away slightly before the other person fires, since he reacts faster than they do. By the time he dodges, the other person has already fired, and missed, and then has realized that he missed. This is how I think dodging in DBZ works, and it makes the most sense.
[/quote]
1) Stated that Raditz was in the blast's way, but he moved to avoid it.
2) And that's an attack fired by a Muten Roshi who was 1000 times weaker than Captain Ginyu, for example.
3) Goku has a ridiculous amount of energy. He can blow planets to pieces.
5) Stated where?

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