gogeta is # 1

<blockquote>I can't believe he keeps ignoring that saiyans cannot survive in space, and such extreme temperatures (-270 C or -454 F). It's more plausible he just was on earth fooling around, testing his power, taking a nap and ect. Because these mentioned events are possible, but not that he was outside the atmosphere in extreme temperatures, which would freeze him in a matter of seconds. His lungs would freeze, seeing how they need to breath like humans... Besides he had made 5-6 rotations and the aura stream of light was still hanging there, as Vegeto mentioned.
And IT, is not just a name, it is mentioned that he moves instantanious.
</blockquote>I agree with Aken_Bosch .
Instantanious has no proof whatsoever that it means that Gotenks is going at the speed of light. Besides...in the panel(s) where it shows Bardock in the manga in Frieza's flashback, was he shown to be in space? If yes then your statements are wrong.
If base Gotenks was that fast, how come it took a while to go up and land on Kami's Lookout for Super Buu. Super Buu is near the power level of ssj3 Gotenks, and it took him like 10 seconds to land on it. While for Gotenks, since he is "instantanious", he would have been to Kami's Look out from the starting point from the ground in like a mini-second. But how can that be true if Super Buu took like 5 to 10 seconds. This makes a big difference.

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MSGohan

What Aken_Bosch is saying about IT isn't correct. It is stated several times that it is an instantanious movement. He thinks US dub anime = canon. How do you think he was planing to teleport to earth and beat Freeza while his ship was 3 hours behind Freeza's. Those ships are FTL, he said he would just've used his move to get there in an instant. But Trunks' arrived so he didn't need to.
Gotenks' isn't faster than Goku's instantanious movement. You are still ignoring how Muten Roshi and Piccolo's beams reached and destroyed the moon in a matter of seconds. And KI aura stream doesn't just hang in the air, it disappears after seconds.
It is also stated saiyans can't survive in space, and you can't determine wether Bardock is outside the atmosphere.
And don't give me PIS arguments like "if so, why that?". Because that is just PIS. Just like when Buu was trying to catch up to Goku and Vegeta before they could fuse, when he spots them, they still have time to say a few words to each other and Vegeta has time to put on the earring. And if Buu's speed was as fast as saiyan saga Goku, he should've reached to them in less a second!!!
Those events are never meant to include any speed feats. Otherwise Goku and Vegeta wouldn't manage to fuse and much more stuff wouldn't be happining. Like also how Mr. Satan survived a hit from Buu, while Recoom knocked out Krillin in one hit in namek saga, or Cell knocking out Piccolo fused with Kami in one hit, I guess you now would say, Mr. Satan > Piccolo w/ Kami > Freeza...
Nice how you avoid my arguments by pulling another ridiculous questions out to "argue". What'll be next? That the moon in DB is made of cotton and hangs a few hundred meters above the surface of earth?

JAIF

Many things that people use to argue about DB/Z characters being "slow" are just added for dramatic effect, like the Goku-Vegeta fusion that was mentioned above several times. The Bardock thing you're referring to just can't be accepted as canon proof, since Frieza stated in the manga that Goku would die if the planet was destroyed, even if he would survive the actual explosion. About the Gotenks thing... well, Gotenks is shown to have circled the globe several times, and then says he had taken a nap. If Piccolo was going after Gotenks' trail, then we may well assume that Gotenks did the circles in like a minute, then took a nap for 28 minutes, and then Piccolo arrived. Of course, that makes a fool out of Piccolo, but if Gotenks' powerlevel was supressed, Piccolo would have to follow Gotenks' trail--and it would have taken him infinitely more time than Gotenks to cover such a distance, even if he "cut short" of some round-the-globe circles. Shunkan Ido... has absolutely nothing to do with speed. It is the technique that, you are in one spot in one moment, and the next you are in another, no matter where it is. The time needed to travel with Shunkan Ido from Earth to the moon is the same that would be needed to travel to Kaioshin planet. And it's the time you need to place your finger on your forehead and focus on a ki signal. And... uh, how do you know the ships Goku and Frieza used were faster than light?

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MSGohan

I totally agree with you, that many (if not all) of those events are for dramatic effects.
As for te FTL ships; The reason is, because it was supposed to take about 4339 years to get to namek, but they could make in days.

JAIF

I don't know though... We don't know the exact speed of "conventional" spaceships. Frieza's spaceships are pretty damn fast but I doubt they're faster than light.

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gogeta is # 1

<blockquote>How do you think he was planing to teleport to earth and beat Freeza while his ship was 3 hours behind Freeza's. Those ships are FTL, he said he would just've used his move to get there in an instant. But Trunks' arrived so he didn't need to.
</blockquote>Oh...I get it now. I never knew how long the ships were apart.

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MSGohan

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"]I don't know though... We don't know the exact speed of "conventional" spaceships. Frieza's spaceships are pretty damn fast but I doubt they're faster than light.[/quote]
hmm.. well normal spaceships travel at speeds about 40.000 km/h. Their ships had to be FTL. And remember how fast Kami's ship got to Jupiter in a matter of seconds! That is FTL.
Damn CURSE the US dub anime, there Bulma says it would take 4339 LIGHTyears to get to namek, but that's incorrect she says it would take so many years wit her dad's fastest ship on earth. I think it's pretty safe to assume their spacepods are FTL.
[quote user="gogeta is # 1"]
Oh...I get it now. I never knew how long the ships were apart.
[/quote]
Besides that it is also mentioned that Goku moves instantanious severals times in manga. For example by Cell and Buu. Btw her also travels to new namek by that. It is instantanious movement, i.e. no time delay in the travel, so he moves with infinite speed. I don't even know why you brought this up while we were discussing about something completly different.

gogeta is # 1

<blockquote>You know what? It's never stated that they moved at light speed, so you can't prove that they can. Done.
</blockquote>Actually, remember this?...
Toriyama-san: Yes I do. Doragonboru has come a long way. They went from running at super speed to moving at the speed of light! (Laughs)
Since MS Gohan proved to me that they go in the speed of light. I guess I had to bring this up too.

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Tyro

No, the line in question doesn't prove anything at all. Mr. Toriyama said that because these questions are sent in by children/young teens/teens, and he gives answers to delight the fans. Read other interviews he's in, he can't remember one thing from the next. In one interview he couldn't remember Taopaipai, and when his memory was refreshed, he didn't even know he played a semi-major role in Goku's search for the Dragonballs.

JAIF

LMAO. But Toriyama wrote the Dragonball, and even if he doesn't remember somethings, when he says something about it, it's bound to be true.

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Tyro

What he said has as little meaning as if he said, "They went from moving at super speed to moving at super, super, SUPER speed. (laughs)"

JAIF

Until I get a chance to ask Mr Toriyama personally about whether he was serious about his statement or not, I will reserve my opinion that at some point during the DBZ series, characters began moving at a speed faster than light, because I believe there is a linear relation between power level and speed, and the rest is pure maths.

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MSGohan

[quote user="SuperVegetto3"]Until I get a chance to ask Mr Toriyama personally about whether he was serious about his statement or not, I will reserve my opinion that at some point during the DBZ series, characters began moving at a speed faster than light, because I believe there is a linear relation between power level and speed, and the rest is pure maths.[/quote]
You don't even need that statement from Akira Toriyama, which some people think is fake. Just by watching the show from the begining you should know how freaking fast they should be...
Besides that I'm of believe that when AT had planned to end the series with Goku going SSj on namek, Goku's speed should be speed of light, if going by a linear relation between PL and speed. Because using Goku's speed on snakeway, his speed when SSj with a PL of 150 million should be just around the speed of light (about 1.1c, which is damn close). So that's why, IMO SSj Goku's speed on namek was about SoL, and the same for Freeza. But when he had to continue the series he didn't made any specific speed statements, because that would ruin many things in the story line, like that many thing wouldn't have enough to happen, and so on.

gogeta is # 1

<blockquote>Nice how you avoid my arguments by pulling another ridiculous questions out to "argue". What'll be next? That the moon in DB is made of cotton and hangs a few hundred meters above the surface of earth?
</blockquote>I only put one question in there so it's question, not questions. The only question I put was about Bardock. How is that ridiculas? Even small info such as that can give us a lot of information.
I wasn't avoiding your comments, if I was, the post in which I mentioned Bardock wouldn't be there would it.

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MSGohan

[quote user="gogeta is # 1"]<blockquote>Nice how you avoid my arguments by pulling another ridiculous questions out to "argue". What'll be next? That the moon in DB is made of cotton and hangs a few hundred meters above the surface of earth?
</blockquote>I only put one question in there so it's question, not questions. The only question I put was about Bardock. How is that ridiculas? Even small info such as that can give us a lot of information.
I wasn't avoiding your comments, if I was, the post in which I mentioned Bardock wouldn't be there would it.
[/quote]
I wasn't refering to you. Sorry if you thought so.
It was about arguments like "Why did Buu take so long to get too the lookout, or Goku & Vegeta" or "Why they couldn't save Gohan & co. before the planet exploded" and many more. I consider those as lame, and I explained why.