ram9

saiyans alive at outer space was all filler.


it's true that there could be no definite speed can be determined but they had mentioned several times that saiyans cant survive in space,so ssj gotenks did flew around the globe few dozen times less than a second which truly happened in canon manga.
ssj gotenks before the training is 100% faster than light.

Aken_Bosch

Wrong and wrong, and you can't prove either assumption.

MSGohan

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]Wrong and wrong, and you can't prove either assumption.
[/quote]
Because you can prove Saiyans can survive in space and not freeze by the extreme temperature (3 K at least)?

Aken_Bosch

Saiyans can't survive in space.
And they can't fly at light speed, or close to it. Gotenks flying around the earth proves this.

MSGohan

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]Saiyans can't survive in space.
And they can't fly at light speed, or close to it. Gotenks flying around the earth proves this.
[/quote]
Yes they can't survive in space, that's why he couldn't have spends minutes out there. Because it can clearly be seen in the manga that he circles the globe outside the atmosphere. To much time out there he would've been icy.
You can for example hold/touch fluid nitrogen (about 70 K) for a few seconds, but if you touch it for too long your hands will freeze. Gotenks spending minuts out there (3 K) is unlikely. Unless you want to say that saiyans can survive extreme cold like 3 K.

Aken_Bosch

He had to have spent minutes out there. If he didn't, Piccolo wouldn't have taken so long to find him (he'd be the strongest thing on the planet at the time, next to Buu).

MSGohan

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]He had to have spent minutes out there. If he didn't, Piccolo wouldn't have taken so long to find him (he'd be the strongest thing on the planet at the time, next to Buu).
[/quote]
His PL could've been lowered on earth, since he also stated he took a nap. Besides that he could also have fooled around a little on earth (we also see him do that before the panel showing him flying around the world) or testing his own power and ect. Althought this explaination seems a little far out, it is less probably he spent minuts outside the atmosphere in extreme temperatures, when clearly saiyans couldn't survive in the vacpuum of space.
Even though both the explaination, that he used so much time just doing nothing but wasting energy on flying around world in all that time, or that he did nothing for so much time on earth, seems far out.
However the fight with Fat Buu was never supposed to take place, therefore AT probably had to come up with something to avoid the fight with SSJ Gotenks, and he just used that Gotenks time was over before he could fight Buu.
And it doesn't seem far fecthed that Gotenks could fly that fast. Because from DB they had insane combat/short burst speed. Muten Roshi's blast that destroyed the moon, had to be quit fast since it made it there in a matter of seconds. And later on we witnessed people easily dogding such blasts. Piccolo also destroyed the moon in a matter of seconds, before saiyan arrival, and his (most powerful at that time) blast was dogded by Raditz, and others stronger than him later on...
So with short bursts or battle speed it doesn't look so unlikely that Goku could move faster than lightning after the training with Kami. Since Mr. Popo had told Goku that he had to move faster lightning.
But their flying speed was surly much slower their battle speed. That's why they take so long to travel from one destination to another (besides the fact that they save energy for battle, and not waste it on flying fast, as stated by Goku). Another argument is that they in DB could move fast enough to disappear and create after images, such features are never observered during their flights.

Aken_Bosch

Gotenks lowering his own power? He's a cocky little brat - he would never do such a thing. He cares about showing off his own power only and making sure everyone knows how strong he is. Like I said, it wouldn't have taken Piccolo that long to find him if Gotenks only flew around the world for a few seconds and then stopped. The only logical explanation I can come up with, is that Gotenks flew around the earth a bunch, and Piccolo was following him, as best he could, the whole time - that explains why Piccolo seemed to show up not too soon after Gotenks stopped.
It really does seem farfetched. Roshi's blast destroying the moon in a matter of seconds is okay, but it can't be as fast as light. You know why? Because you can't see light travel from one place to another - it's so fast, it just appears to be wherever else instantly. Also, Raditz never dodged anything - Piccolo simply missed.
If Goku could move faster than lightning, and his speed increased with his powerlevel, then instant transmission would be useless. That faster than lightning was just an expression, I'm of the belief, just like Cell's ability to destroy the solar system was.
In DB they could do that, yeah, but those were special techniques used to do so. If they traveled at light speed like you said they do, you would ALWAYS see an afterimage behind the character - something that never happens.
Personally, I don't think anyone in DBZ got over 1/12 C - and that speed of 25,000 km/s is reserved for Super Vegetto (and even then, I couldn't picture Super Vegetto circumnavigating the earth in a little less than 2 seconds. I think it would take him at least 10).

gogeta is # 1

__________________
lolololol

Aken_Bosch

No, I don't think it is ever said how fast Instant Transmission travels in exact numbers like it does in the anime. However, the point is, if you move at light speed, you'd constantly see yourself behind you, since you are outrunning your own light waves continually.

MSGohan

[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]Gotenks lowering his own power? He's a cocky little brat - he would never do such a thing. He cares about showing off his own power only and making sure everyone knows how strong he is. Like I said, it wouldn't have taken Piccolo that long to find him if Gotenks only flew around the world for a few seconds and then stopped. The only logical explanation I can come up with, is that Gotenks flew around the earth a bunch, and Piccolo was following him, as best he could, the whole time - that explains why Piccolo seemed to show up not too soon after Gotenks stopped.[/quote]
I explained how his power could've been lowered, by the nap he took (relaxing). I don't even know why you bring up the other points, I already made a referrence to them. I knew it would be those arguments you would use to say that he didn't fly that fast.
The only thing you can't explain is, Gotenks spending several minuts outside the atmosphere. Stuff like Gotenks fooling around on earth, taking a nap, Piccolo looking for him, is plausible. But Gotenks spending several minuts in extreme cold temeperatures like 3 K (did you know that 3 K = -270,5 C = -455 F?) doesn't seem as plausible as the other possibilities, since no one has shown the ability to withstand such temperatures, besides Freeza and Buu.
I didn't say Roshi's blast was fast as light. Actaully the distance to the moon is about 384.000 km. Even if Roshi's blast took about 10 seconds to reach to the moon, his blast's speed would be 38400 km/s, a little above 10% of the speed of light.
Why are you using such "logic" about light for your argument. This is fiction... If I used that logic about Marvel/DC characters many of the so-called FTL travellers wouldn't seem to be travelling FTL afterall. What'll be next, special relativity? The no one would actaully be moving FTL.
You can't also tell that something is moving slow in DB, it is just made so for dramatic effects, and so that we can see what is happening. Take a look at Krillin vs. Jackie Chun fight, where they do so many moves in just 1 sec. So their fights aren't even supposed to be observable for normals eyes.
I can use the same logic for a bullet. If you're in your room and fire a bullet, "it's so fast, it just appears to be wherever else instantly" for a normal human.
Piccolo missed Raditz?... That's a new one [<_<]. Piccolo clearly stated that Raditz side stepped, that's why he was so suprised about Raditz' speed. Saying that he missed is lame... Since when does a character miss a still standing target (i.e. non-moving object)???
I was using that statement in another term. I know just by the expression it sounds like a figure of speech. But I was considering that statement while in comparition to the other feats, like beam reaching moon in seconds, and so on... And lightning speed isn't as fast as light speed. It's around 1/10c to 1/2c.
Ahh yes, what easier ways are there to reject statement, than to deem characters as liers about their power. Just like people deem Vegeta as a lier in the saiyan saga. Did you know that AT comtrols the characters speech? He wanted to give an impression of their powers by making them say how powerful their blasts are, and make them seem impressive. Why would AT make people think Cell has that kind of power, if it was just a lie?
Ok, this got a little of topic, back to speed.
Special technique? Yes. But how did they do it, magic? No. The only explaination is speed, since they did need to move fast in order to make such moves.
Again this is fiction, the effects doesn't need to be there all the time. By that logic few to non in DC/Marvel moves FTL, even though they are stated to do so.
Where did you get the 1/12c for Vegetto? And were did you get the "at least 10 seconds"? Try at least giving some arguments when using numbers.
[quote user="Aken_Bosch"]No, I don't think it is ever said how fast
Instant Transmission travels in exact numbers like it does in the
anime. However, the point is, if you move at light speed, you'd
constantly see yourself behind you, since you are outrunning your own
light waves continually.
[/quote]
It is said how fast the IT is. It is instantanious (it's also called instantanious movement)! I.e an infinite speed. It is mentioned several times throughout the manga. Don't base you argument upon what is stated in anime, and forget about the US dub!!! By the US dub, snakeway is 10.000 miles, and Raditz is fighter light and many more crazy stuff!

Aken_Bosch

1) Nothing suggests that his power decreased when he took a nap. Even so, I don't even believe he took that nap. I already gave my reasons. If he DID take that nap, he'd still be easy to sense, since he's Super Gotenks. He had an aura around him while resting just before Piccolo, for Christ's sake, that's gotta say something (and I'm not suggesting that he rested the whole time, just that it took Piccolo a bit to get to him).
2) I'm pretty sure Raditz says it missed him, but I could be wrong here. Also, if anything, these guys dodge things the same way Spiderman does - he doesn't actually dodge blasts, but since he can move so quickly, he can react fast and move in away seconds before the blast is fired. That's how I think these people dodge blasts, if they move that quickly. Personally, I think they move not much faster than sound.
3) If that was true, then why isn't there an after-image by them simply flying? After-image is a technique - otherwise, there would ALWAYS be an afterimage. Especially if they travelled at light speed. A lot of DC/Marvel guys move faster than light - they do it and say it.

4) It's just an estimate, since I measure speed based on how fast guys can circumnavigate the earth. I don't think he can get faster than that, but that's just personal opinion.
5) You take things too literally. And I DON'T base anything I say on the anime. I guess by your logic, "Universe Destruction Beam" would destroy everything, right?

SS2 Vegeto

It wasn't written that he took a nap for no reason, mastered super saiya-jins can surpress their power seemingly indefinitely, and how long do you think blazing streams of light can hand around the planet?

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MSGohan

[quote user="SS2 Vegeto"]It wasn't written that he took a nap for no reason, mastered super saiya-jins can surpress their power seemingly indefinitely, and how long do you think blazing streams of light can hand around the planet?[/quote]
I can't believe he keeps ignoring that saiyans cannot survive in space, and such extreme temperatures (-270 C or -454 F). It's more plausible he just was on earth fooling around, testing his power, taking a nap and ect. Because these mentioned events are possible, but not that he was outside the atmosphere in extreme temperatures, which would freeze him in a matter of seconds. His lungs would freeze, seeing how they need to breath like humans... Besides he had made 5-6 rotations and the aura stream of light was still hanging there, as Vegeto mentioned.
And IT, is not just a name, it is mentioned that he moves instantanious.
Raditz did dogde the blast. Piccolo stated that he dogded it, not that Piccolo is a bad aimer (WTF?)... People in DBZ don't have "Spidey senses".
Besides that, Raditz was in fact outrunning Goku's kamehameha.
Not much faster than sound?? Let me tell you this: Even if Muten Roshi's kamehameha wave (or Piccolo's random blast) had a speed of 100 Machs (!), it would've taken the blast a little over 3 hours to reach the moon!!!
It's not always that there is after images of FTL movements in DC/Marvel comics...

Aken_Bosch

You know what? It's never stated that they moved at light speed, so you can't prove that they can. Done.