SaiyajinPerfection

100% Frieza was actually stronger then Super Saiyan Goku at first. It's just (believe it or not, similar to USSJ), he got worn out form fighting at a level that high. (And Goku probably got more on par with Frieza because of his gradual power increase). Frieza's muscles most likely slowed him too.
EDIT: I agree that a character can get hurt if they don't expect an attack, but it depends on by how much weaker the person attacking is. (Example: Mr. Satan couldn't hurt Cell during the Cell Games: He was WAY too weak). (Krillin couldn't hurt perfect Cell right after he'd absorbed 18, Krillin's kick did absolutely nothing).
Krillin and Gohan were able to hurt the "Ginyu Goku" during the Frieza arc. (Simply because Ginyu could only force Goku's power up to about 30,000)
Vegeta was able to hurt Super Perfect Cell (Twice actually, even though he was much weaker then him).
So I believe that expectance plays a key role in if someone can be harmed by an attack. I also believe that is what happened during the Cell/Trunks Battle. Presented with all this evidence, I now believe that FSSJ is stronger then USSJ.

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Gozar

[quote user="Gangsta SabZ"] May I also remind you about when Goku powered up just as he got out of the RoSaT, and Trunks was amazed at the power. Also, Trunks had no idea what Goku looked like when powering up, so the suprise shows that the power was greater than his own.
After the powering up, and Trunks still not knowing what state Goku powered up in, they all started talking about how Goku can beat Cell.
^ That and everything Blackmasta said.
[/quote]
But he could tell because it was such a quick power up. Very fast. Plus remember.....USSJ Trunks>>>>Cell (stated).....Goku then goes down to the Cell ring, compares his power to Cell's & says he probably won't be able to win......USSJ Trunks>>>>>Cell (the same Cell Goku sensed)>>>>100% Goku.

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"You hate the fact that your powerless to stop me, that
your completly outmatched, well imagine feeling the way you do now all
of the time like the people of this planet do. FOOLS, how do you think
my Master Gohan felt when you ganged up on him in the rain and he had
no way out. Well now it's your turn, I hope you enjoy it."-Trunks

LegendarySSJ7

[quote user="demonkingpiccolo"]Vegeta was able to hurt Super Perfect Cell (Twice actually, even though he was much weaker then him).[/quote]

...To pick up on this, Vegeta was no place close to "hurting" SSj2 Complete Cell in select circumstances. "Procrasinating" is what comes to mind on this end, by comparison to "harming" which SSj 2nd Grade Vegeta (post-2nd RoSaT) certainly didn't come through with doing. Said Vegeta is the same Vegeta who was infinitely, sizeably weaker than Complete Cell in his powered up state by relation (no place near maximum, everyplace close to bounds below his full power state that's much weaker than his maximum body mass state... compare that with SSj2... that SSj2 completely outstrips in every sense of the term) in comparison (2x as a rigid estimate). Vegeta would be bingo joy on air time even against the powered up Complete Cell, and rummaging a sled and boarding his way out of there (basically exhibiting a veiny [strain/stress-wise] disposition, craven and making off to some place else, or just fleeing, if we should term it as such... though Vegeta's not one to indulge in fleeing, or that there is reversal to the intentions?).

In closing - finding yourself in contest and resting on the "quick-power up" contesting really isn't well-placed nor does it work well in respect. It's dulled - that Trunks was amazed at the sheer volume of MSSj fueled power Goku wielded (not to mention the boosted intensity of his aura) at half alone says differently (by far past the aforementioned abrupt single second).

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SaiyajinPerfection

[quote user="LegendarySSj7"] [quote user="demonkingpiccolo"]Vegeta was able to hurt Super Perfect Cell (Twice actually, even though he was much weaker then him).[/quote]
...To pick up on this, Vegeta was no place close to "hurting" SSj2 Complete Cell in select circumstances. "Procrasinating" is what comes to mind on this end, by comparison to "harming" which SSj 2nd Grade Vegeta (post-2nd RoSaT) certainly didn't come through with doing. Said Vegeta is the same Vegeta who was infinitely, sizeably weaker than Complete Cell in his powered up state by relation (no place near maximum, everyplace close to bounds below his full power state that's much weaker than his maximum body mass state... compare that with SSj2... that SSj2 completely outstrips in every sense of the term) in comparison (2x as a rigid estimate). Vegeta would be bingo joy on air time even against the powered up Complete Cell, and rummaging a sled and boarding his way out of there (basically exhibiting a veiny [strain/stress-wise] disposition, craven and making off to some place else, or just fleeing, if we should term it as such... though Vegeta's not one to indulge in fleeing, or that there is reversal to the intentions?).
In closing - finding yourself in contest and resting on the "quick-power up" contesting really isn't well-placed nor does it work well in respect. It's dulled - that Trunks was amazed at the sheer volume of MSSj fueled power Goku wielded (not to mention the boosted intensity of his aura) at half alone says differently (by far past the aforementioned abrupt single second).
[/quote]
I'll re-phrase then, Vegeta was strong enough to "divert Cell's attention". And Going from the Manga, When he distracted Cell with a blast strong enough to allow Gohan victory, he wasn't even a Super Saiyan.

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Gozar

Boosted Intensity Aura? What do you call USSJ Trunks aura? That is a one of a kind Aura.

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"You hate the fact that your powerless to stop me, that
your completly outmatched, well imagine feeling the way you do now all
of the time like the people of this planet do. FOOLS, how do you think
my Master Gohan felt when you ganged up on him in the rain and he had
no way out. Well now it's your turn, I hope you enjoy it."-Trunks

JerrodDRagon

[quote user="LegendarySSj7"] [quote user="demonkingpiccolo"]Vegeta was able to hurt Super Perfect Cell (Twice actually, even though he was much weaker then him).[/quote]
...To pick up on this, Vegeta was no place close to "hurting" SSj2 Complete Cell in select circumstances. "Procrasinating" is what comes to mind on this end, by comparison to "harming" which SSj 2nd Grade Vegeta (post-2nd RoSaT) certainly didn't come through with doing. Said Vegeta is the same Vegeta who was infinitely, sizeably weaker than Complete Cell in his powered up state by relation (no place near maximum, everyplace close to bounds below his full power state that's much weaker than his maximum body mass state... compare that with SSj2... that SSj2 completely outstrips in every sense of the term) in comparison (2x as a rigid estimate). Vegeta would be bingo joy on air time even against the powered up Complete Cell, and rummaging a sled and boarding his way out of there (basically exhibiting a veiny [strain/stress-wise] disposition, craven and making off to some place else, or just fleeing, if we should term it as such... though Vegeta's not one to indulge in fleeing, or that there is reversal to the intentions?).
In closing - finding yourself in contest and resting on the "quick-power up" contesting really isn't well-placed nor does it work well in respect. It's dulled - that Trunks was amazed at the sheer volume of MSSj fueled power Goku wielded (not to mention the boosted intensity of his aura) at half alone says differently (by far past the aforementioned abrupt single second).
[/quote]
well also (this may be anime only) but when Goku quite the match against Cell the first person he asked who would fight him was Trunks (if not Trunks then Vegeta) and then Piccolo he did not even think of Gohan who like Goku at FP and had Mastered SS1....
like I said before I think FP is weaker but FP is much Faster anf you waste less chi....So in other words FP is better than USSSJ.

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Lord Saiyan

how can a stage that showcases the "mastery" of the SUPER SAIYA-JIN level be weaker than a Unmastered level???? FPSSJ is much stronger and faster than USSJ...FPSSJ has mastery over both strength and speed....doesnt the words "FULL POWERED" ring a bell???

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I AM THE RULER OF ALL SAIYANS!

SaiyajinPerfection

[quote user="Lord Saiyan"]how can a stage that showcases the "mastery" of the SUPER SAIYA-JIN level be weaker than a Unmastered level???? FPSSJ is much stronger and faster than USSJ...FPSSJ has mastery over both strength and speed....doesnt the words "FULL POWERED" ring a bell???
[/quote]
Well, SS Gotenks was as strong as SS3 Goku. So it is possible for a "weaker" level to be stronger then a higher level depending on who it is.
Trunks also called USSJ the "Super, Super Saiyan". So it is a Super version of the Super Saiyan, while Full Powered/Mastered Super Saiyan is exactly what it says, a mastered Super Saiyan. Mastered Super Saiyan is able to utilize their ki better then "Super Super Saiyans", that is why they are so strong, but that doesn't mean that the form is always physically more powerful. So, I actually believe that Goku and Trunks are very close (if not the same) in actual brute strength. It is possible that Trunks was slightly stronger then FPSS Goku, after all, it is a known fact that Saiyan/Human hybrids have a physical advantage over pure Saiyans. (Which also explains Why Gohan was stronger then Goku and was able to master Super Saiyan and ascend to Super Saiyan 2 in less then a year).

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jplaya2023

if were talking about sheer strength then its an ussj but overally its a fpssj.

Broly

Not even in sheer strength, Mssj owns Second and Third stage super saiyan in all categories.

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JAIF

Seeing how, even after re-entering the Room of Spirit and Time at a time when they already knew the weaknesses of USS forms 1 and 2, Vegita and Trunks were far from being considered an actual challenge for FP Perfect Cell, but MSS Goku actually fared quite good against him, I'd say MSS>>USS in terms of overall battle effectiveness. But mastering Super Saiyan requires more time than achieving Ultra Super Saiyan.

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Broly

Question: Why didnt Vegeta and Trunks try to attain the MSSj the second time they went into the ROSAT?
I mean, Goku and Gohan had attained it when they went in, so there would obviously be enough time for Vegeta and Trunks to get used to SSj.

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SaiyajinPerfection

[quote user="Broly: God of Death"] Question: Why didnt Vegeta and Trunks try to attain the MSSj the second time they went into the ROSAT?
I mean, Goku and Gohan had attained it when they went in, so there would obviously be enough time for Vegeta and Trunks to get used to SSj.
[/quote]
In order to master Super Saiyan, you need to stay transformed constantly, while doing normal activity. The transformation can't be exclusive to training or battle alone. that is how their bodies are able to deal with and eventually master it. Vegeta and Trunks didn't know what Goku and Gohan had done in order to get the power they did, they were not aware that staying a Super Saiyan when not fighting would have the effect that it did, and Goku never told them that it was as simple as constantly staying transformed in order to master it.

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Broly

I know how its acheived. And Vegeta and Trunks knew what goku had done. And I think its common sense that vegeta and trunks would know how to attain it: By practicing maintaining the SSj state. The question is why wouldnt they at least try to do it?

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SaiyajinPerfection

[quote user="Broly: God of Death"]I know how its acheived. And Vegeta and Trunks knew what goku had done. And I think its common sense that vegeta and trunks would know how to attain it: By practicing maintaining the SSj state. The question is why wouldnt they at least try to do it?[/quote]
No they didn't, Vegeta even stated when Goku and Gohan had exited the room that he didn't know how Goku had developed the ability to stay transformed indefinitely without the standard effects provided by Super Saiyan form. This should be in volume 17. And Goku never states anywhere to Vegeta or Trunks how he developed this ability.
Well as another example: it was also common sense to Trunks that powering up too much while at Super Saiyan 3rd Grade would increase the muscle mass enough to actually inhibit speed. But he kept doing it and eventually had to admit defeat against Cell. I can understand if Vegeta could actually figure out the "secret" to mastering Super Saiyan, the evidence is there with his "common sense" to weigh the negetive effects vs the positive effects with Super Saiyan 3rd grade (for example) or other transformations. It was stated that Vegeta could reach Super Saiyan 3rd Grade, but chose not to, because he knew the negatives out-weighed the positives. Vegeta does have common sense when it comes to transformations, Trunks does not. But why he didn't figure out how to attain mastered Super Saiyan is beyond me. I assume it was because he was focused on getting stronger then Goku, not mastering Super Saiyan. That was his original goal all along, defeating Cell was his second priority. And Vegeta didn't know how strong Goku was until the Cell games, and that was after his second entrance to the RoSaT.

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