FierceGamer

This may mean nothing, but I just thought of this. Sparks are definitely a charactaristic of SS3, right? And yet we don't see sparks around SS3 Goku or Gotenks all the time, do we? I'm not saying necessarily that Gohan was SS2, but it is something to think about. Sometimes I just want to believe that Gohan was a SS2 when he was fighting Dabura and Majin Buu, just because it would make more sense. It just seems pretty clear that he wasn't, because we don't see a single spark.

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One day Chuck Norris walked down the street with a massive erection ... there were no survivors.

ANB

1) Babadi's magic would still be overwhelming. He says very plainly in a show of fefiance: "You have my body, but not my pride!". Again, SSJ 2 did not happen until the person first to use it, Gohan, went through trauma and years of built up emotions. SSJ regular is a given for an crash dummy who wants to put themselves through years of torturous training and get angry enough to release the chi. Transcended Super Saiyajin, or Super Saiyajin 2nd, is far more complex in achievement and only the very talented can reach it. The form balances power, ki-output, and speed while advanceing them to new heights; even when compared to the first form.

2) There is very loose evidence for proving Vegeta was SSJ 2. It is just so much more logical for him to still be Super Saiyajin 1. Keep in mind, he had to master it first, then train extensively in it far longer than Goku did (and for 7 years!). In the above quote (Not exact of course) Vegeta makes it clear he just wanted the boost that came with "evil". It was a jumble of mixed emotions and chemical imbalances, not to mention a psychotic id, that ecentually broke the Super Saiyajin barrier and transcended it. What makes it even more logical is the FACT Vegeta assumed Goku had achieved SSJ2 and was ignorant of the third form.

3) Had to answer this since this is what the whole thread is about [kakashi2] Dabra is clearly in between MSSJ's Gohan and Goku (including magic) while Post-Cell Son Gohan ranges a couple notches below his father (just before the tournament, it was proven to be even lower when Goten startled his brother with speed and not to mention, SSJ).

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LegendarySSJ7

1) This mules its way into the voracious, psychological undertones of any one Saiyan or character, rather than the forms themselves at large - I find that to say you'd need anything beyond fervid training and things along that nature to achieve the SSj Type 2 and 3 states is kind of stretching it and a tad overdramatic. I'd say a more arduous task would be completely mastering the original form. This is something Goku, to his efforts, peered into first (with the threshold of the multiplier), instead of just pushing forward the aforementioned incomplete states with their obvious fatal flaws.


2) (Page 81, Dragonball Volume 36 / 20) Vegeta: "Once you were far more powerful than me, but how about now? I've kept up my training while you frolicked in peace."
Hence that he says now. This alludes to Vegeta being at least as strong as SSj 2 Gohan was at the Cell Games, if not stronger. I don't see how his MSSj state could be as strong as a SSj 2, what with that kind of augmentation when Vegeta comments later on after having his latent power drawn out:
(Page 172, Dragonball Volume 38 / 22) Vegeta: "Pretty good. You're stronger than Gohan!"
We can safely assume with merit this is the SSj 2 Gohan of the Cell Game as Vegeta wouldn't bother adding "Pretty good." to a power he previously looked upon with lament. There is no reason to further the notion. But, to set this in stone, where this all convenes...


(Page 83, Dragonball Volume 38 / 22) Vegeta: "So Kakarrot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall, too."



Notice how he says TOO, easily insinuating that he himself achieved the form in question (SSj 2, to be meticulous) over the 7-year gap. Whilst one could make an altercation out of that... he was referencing SSj 2 Gohan, this is the same SSj 2 Gohan he chides now for not upkeeping his training (and the one from the Cell Game he subtly claims superiority over). And remember, it's a 7-year gap. An example: in the 3 years, in the preparation for Dr. Gero's Cyborgs, Vegeta went from being Freeza's inferior to surpassing a healthy SSj Goku who trained fiercely over a 3-year gap. I wouldn't say it's inanely fire and brimstone to say Vegeta achieved SS2 over the 7-year gap, with even more evidence later on staking the belief when we see Vegeta still jump to SSj 2 after losing the "Majin" "power-up".

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ANB

While I always prefer direct quotes from the manga over anything, even visual reference, you may have just boned yourself buddy. Vegeta is quite the envious one: "the Super Saiyan wall, too," is the usual Vegeta trailing off after observing something that is plainly obvious.

Remember Yakon...? Vegeta, Gohan, everybody could tell Goku had a shit-load of chi and it was from more than just him "being a MSSJ". They would have remembered vividly, ESPECIALLY Vegeta, how Goku cranked out half his full power at Karin's place and then when he used that same amount (Maybe not exact) during the play/warm-up against Cell, AND THEN witnessing the glorious full potential of Goku when he used full power.

I am using logic here. Vegeta saw that Dabra was narrowly ahead of Son Gohan and had a legitamete complaint (And it was consistant with Vegeta's chiding of Gohan for "slacking"). However, Dabra is a demon lord and could see through it. Being a being (excuse the pun) of pure evil and having been controlled (possibly willingly) by a sinister sorcerer, Dabra apparently has higher level perception. It was in this outburst, the catalyst for a very dramatic chain reaction of events, that Dabra noticed the small area of darkness lurking in the shadows of Vegeta's soul. He really had changed, thanks to the Son's, but like Piccolo he still had work to do. And plot-wise, this works almost brilliantly.



Well, this is OBVIOUSLY refering to their MSSJ forms. I said in my theory Vegeta had to have trained in the MSSJ state far longer than Goku did, and as a result his base was weaker than the latter's.

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