The Ki level of Dabra - Page 5

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan

Dabura is about equal to the "MSSj" Perfect Cell. [the Cell Goku fought in the "Cell Game"]

Dabura cannot be equal to Full Power Perfect Cell because of the fact that MSSj Gohan [Buu Arc] is weaker than the MSSj Gohan [Cell Arc]. You know what I'm saying?

Oh yeah, my fault. I didn't even think about the Cell that battled at half-power. I was beginning to think I put his power much too high, because everyone {except Gohan of course} was afraid of Cell's True Power. Eventhough Vegeta would have still easily trashed Dabra in my opinion.

Broly · 05-12-2007

Yeah, the MSSj Vegeta [Buu Arc] would be able to take Dabra down with ease.

Freezer · 06-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

Yes. It. Is. Do yourself a favor and indulge to reading the Manga and you'll learn that lightning is the very corpus trait of a SSj 2. No perpetual lightning engulfing Gohan's SSj aura easily denotes that he's a SSj 1.

End. Of. Story.

Actually, an incredibly strong case for Gohan being SSj2 during the battle against Dabura was made on a different forum. I will now share this information with you. I will review the facts in chronological order.

Firstly, Kaioshin sees Gohan go SSj2 at the Budokai, and senses his power. (Kaioshin states that this is an unexpectedly huge power, and he doesn't know if he'll be able to hold such power in place.) This indicates that Kaioshin was able to judge Gohan's strength as an SSJ2.

Later, Kaioshin implies that he doesn't think the z-senshi can defeat Dabra. What's more is that Dabra attacked and killed Kibito, revealing his power. This instance is used by Vegeta in particular to judge Dabra's power. Vegeta: "We saw him outside, and he'd be no problem to us as long as we avoided his saliva."

Later still, Pui Pui and Yakon are defeated. And now this part is key. Kaioshin states "These guys have access to incredible power, I cannot believe it. Then again, it was difficult for me to hold Gohan in place at the tournament... and he wasn't even at full power?" Bolding added for emphasis. It is at this point that Kaioshin aknowledged that Gohan wasn't even at full power at the tournament, but the level of power he saw was insufficent to defeat Dabra.

Later Gohan is fighting evenly with Dabra. Considering the facts above, Gohan must have been a SSj2. As for the lack of lightning? It's not the first artisitc error on Toriyama-sensei's part. Need I remind you of the number of Piccolo's fingers in a certain chapter of Dragonball? The Buu saga itself is full of plot holes a plenty. More evidence that Gohan was SSj2 during his battle against Dabra is the appearence of his hair. When training with Goten as a regular Super Saiyan, Gohan's hair looks quite different then it does when he was fighting Dabra. His hair while fighitng Dabra is consistent of his other stated SSj2 instances.

My final piece of evidence that Gohan was SSj2 while fighting Dabra is the fact that if you people are considering Dabra to be around Perfect Cell's level; then it is quite ludacris to think Gohan could hold his own against him as a simple SSj1. Think about it. Perfect Cell was way beyond FPSSJ Gohan's level; and the Gohan of the Buu era is stated a few times by Vegeta to have grown weaker since that time. It wouldn't make sense unless you consider Dabra to be FAR under the power of Perfect Cell. I don't think anyone here would testify that Gohan could have defeated Perfect Cell without becoming SSj2..

Radditz · 06-11-2007

Also, let us not forget:
FACT: Gohan is stated, STATED, to be weaker than he was when he fought Cell.

FACT: Dabura is stated, STATED, to be as powerful as Cell.
FACT: FPSSJ Gohan could not even begin to keep up with a holding back Perfect Cell.
There is no way in hell Gohan was SSJ1 when he fought Dabura.
And yes, this is a reiteration of the final paragraph of the previous post, but put into bulleted form.

Deep Thought · 06-11-2007

But there isn't a single time in the manga when Toriyama forgot to add the sparks, sounds like a pretty big coinecedence to me that he would've forgot to add the sparks. Besides, it was STATED that Shin's* bodyguard didn't fullty restore Gohan* and it was STATED that Dabra was holding back.

**LegendarySSJ7** · 06-11-2007

[quote user="Freezer"] Actually, an incredibly strong case for Gohan being SSj2 during the battle against Dabura was made on a different forum. I will now share this information with you. I will review the facts in chronological order.
Firstly, Kaioshin sees Gohan go SSj2 at the Budokai, and senses his power. (Kaioshin states that this is an unexpectedly huge power, and he doesn't know if he'll be able to hold such power in place.) This indicates that Kaioshin was able to judge Gohan's strength as an SSJ2.

Later, Kaioshin implies that he doesn't think the z-senshi can defeat Dabra. What's more is that Dabra attacked and killed Kibito, revealing his power. This instance is used by Vegeta in particular to judge Dabra's power. Vegeta: "We saw him outside, and he'd be no problem to us as long as we avoided his saliva."

Later still, Pui Pui and Yakon are defeated. And now this part is key. Kaioshin states "These guys have access to incredible power, I cannot believe it. Then again, it was difficult for me to hold Gohan in place at the tournament... and he wasn't even at full power?" Bolding added for emphasis. It is at this point that Kaioshin aknowledged that Gohan wasn't even at full power at the tournament, but the level of power he saw was insufficent to defeat Dabra.[/quote]The fatal flaw in this is that it's not certain that either Kaio-shin or Kibito can genuinely sense chi - their method is rather wishwash and sensing one thing one moment and then making a statement that invalidates any of the aforementioned is a tad off-beat, so it's not a template I'd use to stake the notion of what Super Saiyan form Gohan was maintaining against Dabra.

[quote user="Freezer"]Later Gohan is fighting evenly with Dabra. Considering the facts above, Gohan must have been a SSj2. As for the lack of lightning? It's not the first artisitc error on Toriyama-sensei's part. Need I remind you of the number of Piccolo's fingers in a certain chapter of Dragonball? The Buu saga itself is full of plot holes a plenty. More evidence that Gohan was SSj2 during his battle against Dabra is the appearence of his hair. When training with Goten as a regular Super Saiyan, Gohan's hair looks quite different then it does when he was fighting Dabra. His hair while fighitng Dabra is consistent of his other stated SSj2 instances.[/quote]Toriyama-sensei is forgetful, but not that much so. Consider it this way - Vegeta addresses Dabra with utter nonchalance, as does Goku, and acts as if the power he wielded certainly wasn't in a range to compete with any SSj2, and that Dabra wasn't behind... he was astringently behind. By their own accord. Add in the fact that on a consistent basis there's bolts of lightning dancing around any SSj2 aura maintained (the tip-off), and that both Dabra and Gohan were wheezing at the height of their battle (even if Dabra was tangibly stronger, only enough so to have quite a small advantage.... again, to reiterate, only the stronger of the two by a small amount), and that the last time Gohan fought whilst sustaining SSj2, it indirectly caused his own father's death and nigh the end of the world (a psychological standpoint, in short), and it provides a rock-solid belief that Gohan was certainly not SSj2 in his battle with Dabra.

[quote user="Freezer"]My final piece of evidence that Gohan was SSj2 while fighting Dabra is the fact that if you people are considering Dabra to be around Perfect Cell's level; then it is quite ludacris to think Gohan could hold his own against him as a simple SSj1. Think about it. Perfect Cell was way beyond FPSSJ Gohan's level; and the Gohan of the Buu era is stated a few times by Vegeta to have grown weaker since that time. It wouldn't make sense unless you consider Dabra to be FAR under the power of Perfect Cell. I don't think anyone here would testify that Gohan could have defeated Perfect Cell without becoming SSj2..[/quote]Firstly, the Complete Cell you speak of that's leaps and bounds ahead of the MSSj Gohan of the Cell Saga Arc is in his full power state (prior to developing the SSj2 aura..... obviously alluding to him as a SSj2, post-explosion). Secondly, we usually consider him to be around Complete Cell's power in the powered up state he indulged in displaying and using against both Gohan (pre-SSj2) and Goku. Thirdly, read all the aforesaid on the fanfare of Gohan being SSj2 or not against Dabra. Given the previous response, I'd say the assertions I speak of work themselves out as such.

Freezer · 06-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep thought

But there isn't a single time in the manga when Toriyama forgot to add the sparks, sounds like a pretty big coinecedence to me that he would've forgot to add the sparks. Besides, it was STATED that Shin's bodyguard didn't fullty restore Gohan and it was STATED that Dabra was holding back.

Actually, I can make scans of a few scattered panels where the sparks aren't drawn with stated SSj2. Sure they are just random panels, but they do exist. If you doubt their existance I'll do the scans for you, but I'll wait for the "go ahead, I dare you" before I actually spend the time scanning them.

As for it being stated that Kibito didn't fully restore Gohan.. I have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. Again, I will back my claims up with scans if need be, but this is how it happens. Kibito is healing Gohan, he looks confused and says "He's till not at full power yet?" However after this panel he CONTINUES to heal Gohan. Later he is shown standing up, sweating, and says "Phew--that should do it." This is indication that he went on to complete his task after his original comment. I don't know where you guys got into your head that's stated that he wasn't able to--because I assure you such a statement does not exist.

Next, it is stated that Dabra was holding back? I will have to assume you are reffering to Dabra saying "Of course I can beat him, I fought the worm earlier and he won't be any problem to me." when Babidi asks if Dabra can indeed win. I would not presume to consider this a direct statement that Dabra was holding back last time. After all, he had an edge over Gohan--and he's acting in-character with the generic arrogant Villain here. For that matter Babidi is scorning Dabra for not causing any damage (or just not enough) damage to Gohan during the battle. This alone has me doubting that Dabra held back anything significant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

The fatal flaw in this is that it's not certain that either Kaio-shin or Kibito can genuinely sense chi - their method is rather wishwash and sensing one thing one moment and then making a statement that invalidates any of the aforementioned is a tad off-beat, so it's not a template I'd use to stake the notion of what Super Saiyan form Gohan was maintaining against Dabra

Kaioshin has shown at least three examples of being able to perfectly sense ki. There's the one I already mentioned (Him not knowing if he could hold "such power" when Gohan displayed SSj2 at the tournament). The other is when Goku goes SSj3 to fight against Fat Buu. At this point Kaioshin identifies the ki they are feeling all the way from Kaioshin Kai to indeed be Goku. The third example is when Super Buu is first formed. Even from the Kaioshin Kai he could sense this event along with everyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

Consider it this way - Vegeta addresses Dabra with utter nonchalance, as does Goku

Goku actually makes somewhat of a retraction on that when he later says that Dabra is "tougher then I thought". And he had first compared Dabra with Cell. Is Cell an opponent who could be defeated withou the use of SSj2? Even for pre-explosion Cell, the answer in this users opinion is definitly not. Combine that with the fact that Gohan is stated to now be weaker then the Cell-ear Gohan, and I am thoroughly confused by the idea of SSj1 Gohan being a match for a Cell-level threat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

Add in the fact that on a consistent basis there's bolts of lightning dancing around any SSj2 aura maintained (the tip-off),

I will concure with you that it is very puzzling that there is no lightning, when the lightning was shown mere chapters ago. However, to claim Gohan was only SSJ1 is to accept that this part of the story simply doesn't make sense. Barring any forth wall breaking explanations, he simply had to be SSj2 to compete against a Cell-level threat. Vegeta makes no sign of disagreeing when Goku said Dabra is about as tough as Cell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

and that the last time Gohan fought whilst sustaining SSj2, it indirectly caused his own father's death and nigh the end of the world (a psychological standpoint, in short)

And yet he has no problem flaunting the form for Kibito at a tournament full of people, just to show off? He was asked simply to produce Super Saiyan, and instead delivers Super Saiyan 2. For this reason, I cannot agree with the theory that Gohan had some kind of psychological aversion to the form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

Firstly, the Complete Cell you speak of that's leaps and bounds ahead of the MSSj Gohan of the Cell Saga Arc is in his full power state

In my opinion, Cell showed significant superiority over Gohan's mastered Super Saiyan form before he powered up. After toying with Gohan for a bit, he is able to speed blitz him effectively. Sure, Gohan is unharmed--but is still unable to do anything against Cell. Durring the Cell Junior fiasco, Gohan jumps at Cell; only to be kicked effortlessly away. And all this is before Cell took the last step towards full power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

Secondly, we usually consider him to be around Complete Cell's power in the powered up state he indulged in displaying and using against both Gohan (pre-SSj2) and Goku.

And as I addressed above, I believe even this display of Cell's power is more then sufficent for defeating any non-SSj2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSj7

Thirdly, read all the aforesaid on the fanfare of Gohan being SSj2 or not against Dabra. Given the previous response, I'd say the assertions I speak of work themselves out as such.

I'd already read through this entire topic before posting here. Indeed, you will see the first things I say were in reply to points made earlier (some all the way back on page 2) that I found to be flawed.

Broly · 06-11-2007

Gohan was not a Super Saiyan 2 when fighting Dabra. Here's why:

DBZ - Vol. 22 Pg. 184 = Gohan: "...I get it now...!! Dad's fighting at a power level beyond the super saiyan limits...and probably Vegeta too...so the damage is greater...!!!"

This obviously indicates that Gohan was not an SSj2 when he was fighting Dabra because the damage dealt between the two of them would have at least boosted Buu's revival gauge a bit. If Gohan was an SSj2 and Dabra is as powerful as you say he is, then the fight would've been much more intense and the damage given would've been enourmous.

Another thing: Goku said that Dabra was stronger than he thought only because of the fact that he used magic. See here:

DBZ - Vol. 22 Pg. 132 = Goku: "So he uses magic, huh? He's tougher than I thought."

Freezer · 06-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

Gohan was not a Super Saiyan 2 when fighting Dabra. Here's why:

DBZ - Vol. 22 Pg. 184 = Gohan: "...I get it now...!! Dad's fighting at a power level beyond the super saiyan limits...and probably Vegeta too...so the damage is greater...!!!"

This obviously indicates that Gohan was not an SSj2 when he was fighting Dabra because the damage dealt between the two of them would have at least boosted Buu's revival gauge a bit.

Actually Gohan's battle with Dabra did boost the gauge a bit. Backtrack a few chapters to where Babidi inserts Gohan's energy into Buu's shell. Look at where the meter has ended up. Just before a half tank. Now, go ahead to the battle between Gohan and Dabra. When it shows Babidi scorning Dabra about needing to cause more damage, look where the needle is (You can see the meter at Babidi's feet) It is now just PAST a half tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

If Gohan was an SSj2 and Dabra is as powerful as you say he is, then the fight would've been much more intense and the damage given would've been enourmous.

The very nature of their fight disagrees with this. Dabra and Gohan aren't having a slug fest. Dabra is mostly going for kill moves, and Gohan is doing his best to avoid them. Right off the bat when Goku and Vegeta fight we see they are really wailing on eachother and taking blows left and right.

Also, most importantly is that Goku and Vegeta are both stated to be stronger then Gohan. Apprently they are significantly stronger then Gohan. Another reason it makes perfect sense they filled the meter up higher. As for Gohan being surprised that they're fighting as SSj2, this is not an indication that Gohan himself wasn't SSj2. When he left them, they were both SSj1, but then he realizes they must be fighting in SSj2. No indication there that he, himself wasn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

Another thing: Goku said that Dabra was stronger than he thought only because of the fact that he used magic. See here:

DBZ - Vol. 22 Pg. 132 = Goku: "So he uses magic, huh? He's tougher than I thought."

It still doesn't change the fact that Goku said Dabra was at Cell's level, and that Vegeta did not contest this comparison. Suffice it to say, that Dabra is stated as a Cell level threat. Now, Gohan could not do much good against even pre full power Complete Cell without being an SSJ2 all the way back then.. now he's stated to be WEAKER then that time. What sense does it make for him to keep up with a Cell level threat as SSj1 after becoming far weaker then he was at the Cell era. Again, I remind you that even before powering up, Cell displayed superiority over mastered Super Saiyan Gohan at the Cell games. His "real speed" effectively blitzed Gohan, and we see Cell effortlessly kick Gohan away during the Cell Junior fiasco.

There's no way a far weaker Gohan then the Cell Game Gohan could be fighting against a being stated by Goku to be about the same as CELL, without using SSj2. Combine that with the fact that his hair while fighting Dabra looks quite different from his hair while training with Goten, and it shouldn't be too difficult to accept. Lightning or not.

Broly · 06-12-2007

1. Okay. A little bit. But in comparison to Goku and Vegeta it is nothing. Despite how much weaker Gohan is than Vegeta and Goku, his power as an SSj2 should be more than enough to at least boost the gauge up half way or close to max. Goku and Vegeta only dealt each other two blows until the gauge made it to max. There's a BIG difference between the fight with Gohan and Dabra, and the fight with Goku and Vegeta. From the manga's point of view, each fighter in each fight only deal out one blow to each other. [all before Buu was awakened] If you compare the fight of Gohan and Dabra to the fight of Goku and Vegeta you will obviously see that Goku and Vegeta are putting out way more power than Gohan and Dabra just by standing. How could you possibly think Gohan is an SSj2?

2. Actually it is an indication that Gohan wasn't because if he was then the gauge would've been more than 1/20th of the way to max from the half way point.

3. Well, Goku says that Dabra and Cell are "about" the same. If you look up "about" in the dictionary the definition is "close to; near". Dabra was weaker than Perfect Cell [powered-up/pre-full power]. Plus, Gohan did catch up on his training a bit more before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, so that would make their powers even closer.

4. Vol. 22 Pg. 65 = Vegeta: "I'm saying Dabra's not as terrible as you think. We saw him outside, and we could easily [<key word] have handled him as long as we dodged his saliva! Kibito was just incompetent, that's all."

Lord of Lords: "... Goku...is this true?"

Goku: "...Yeah. At the level we are now, anyway. He would've been bad news before though."

"...the level we are now..." is a quote referring to their SSj2 capabilities. Goku talks about how they would've had a hard time with Dabra if they were to fight him in the Cell Arc because back then they were all below Perfect Cell [powered-up].

Freezer · 06-12-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

1. Okay. A little bit. But in comparison to Goku and Vegeta it is nothing. Despite how much weaker Gohan is than Vegeta and Goku, his power as an SSj2 should be more than enough to at least boost the gauge up half way or close to max.

As I've already pointed out, but you seem to have disregarded; Gohan is not taking many hits against Dabra. It is stated that they will get no energy from Buu if the victims are not being damaged. Babidi himself states that Dabra isn't doing enough damage. If Gohan isn't getting hit much, then the meter will not be filling up much. The only hit we see Gohan taking is the fireball that Dabra struck him with. And that only ripped his shirt, it didn't really injure him much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

Goku and Vegeta only dealt each other two blows until the gauge made it to max.

You are aware that some of the fight happens off panel between the time they start fighting, and that Buu is revived; are you not? Also, again.. Vegeta and Goku are stated to be stronger then Gohan, so the damage they deal is greater. Simple, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

There's a BIG difference between the fight with Gohan and Dabra, and the fight with Goku and Vegeta. From the manga's point of view, each fighter in each fight only deal out one blow to each other. [all before Buu was awakened]

Have you ever heard of "off panel" before? The average reader will understand that Goku and Vegeta are still fighting after the scene changes. As for the Dabra fight, we don't even have to speculate. It is outright stated that "Even as the finals at the tournament wrap up, the battle between Gohan and Dabra rages on" We then jump in during the MIDDLE of things. Meaning some of the fight before that point had occured off panel before we are allowed to see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

If you compare the fight of Gohan and Dabra to the fight of Goku and Vegeta you will obviously see that Goku and Vegeta are putting out way more power than Gohan and Dabra just by standing.

Their aura size actually isn't that different. Take a second look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

How could you possibly think Gohan is an SSj2?

I've stated my case for why I do, but I'll sum it up again. Dabra is stated to be about as strong as Cell. Gohan is stated to have been weaker since the Cell game. Even Cell Game Gohan cannot beat Cell without SSj2. Not even pre-explosion Cell, heck not even Pre-full power Cell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

2. Actually it is an indication that Gohan wasn't because if he was then the gauge would've been more than 1/20th of the way to max from the half way point.

AGAIN..not if Gohan isn't getting hit much..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

3. Well, Goku says that Dabra and Cell are "about" the same. If you look up "about" in the dictionary the definition is "close to; near". Dabra was weaker than Perfect Cell [powered-up/pre-full power]. Plus, Gohan did catch up on his training a bit more before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, so that would make their powers even closer.

"Close to; near" Yep that about sums it up. The meaning isn't changed. Dabra is said to be about the same as Cell. Meaning whatever difference between Dabra and the Cell that Goku is comparing him to, is not major.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect Cell

4. Vol. 22 Pg. 65 = Vegeta: "I'm saying Dabra's not as terrible as you think. We saw him outside, and we could easily [<key word] have handled him as long as we dodged his saliva! Kibito was just incompetent, that's all."

Lord of Lords: "... Goku...is this true?"

Goku: "...Yeah. At the level we are now, anyway. He would've been bad news before though."

"...the level we are now..." is a quote referring to their SSj2 capabilities. Goku talks about how they would've had a hard time with Dabra if they were to fight him in the Cell Arc because back then they were all below Perfect Cell [powered-up].

What you've just pointed out helps my case far more then it helps yours. Goku saying the way they were back then wouldn't be enough to beat Dabra, but now they have SSj2. Now, Gohan is stated to have grown weaker since the Cell Games, so what sense at all does that make for him to be able to keep up as SSj1? MSSj Gohan was no match for pre-full power Cell..and now he's stated to have grown even weaker..making the case for Gohan being SSj1 vs. Dabra even more nonsensical. You must not believe Goku's judgement when he compared Dabra to Cell, eh? Vegeta made no sign of disagreeing to the statement however.

**LegendarySSJ7** · 06-12-2007

[quote user="Freezer"]Kaioshin has shown at least three examples of being able to perfectly sense ki. There's the one I already mentioned (Him not knowing if he could hold "such power" when Gohan displayed SSj2 at the tournament). The other is when Goku goes SSj3 to fight against Fat Buu. At this point Kaioshin identifies the ki they are feeling all the way from Kaioshin Kai to indeed be Goku. The third example is when Super Buu is first formed. Even from the Kaioshin Kai he could sense this event along with everyone else.[/quote]One could still contest that he had no chi-sensing capacity when he cautioned the Zet Senshi about a tremendously weak Pocus (and the Yakon, with the gap between the two being quite stupefying when one thinks about it) in comparison, and that his assumptions of power were all based on reputation. Again, to reiterate, it's quite the grey area to dish out.

[quote user="Freezer"]Goku actually makes somewhat of a retraction on that when he later says that Dabra is "tougher then I thought". And he had first compared Dabra with Cell. Is Cell an opponent who could be defeated withou the use of SSj2? Even for pre-explosion Cell, the answer in this users opinion is definitly not. Combine that with the fact that Gohan is stated to now be weaker then the Cell-ear Gohan, and I am thoroughly confused by the idea of SSj1 Gohan being a match for a Cell-level threat.[/quote]Tougher than he thought, but still someone he would scoff at the notion of fighting. He would not scoff at the notion of fighting a SSj2. And I don't quite understand where seeing the idea, on my part, of furthering the notion of Cell Games Gohan (pre-SSj2) being a match for Complete Cell, is coming from. He was only marginally stronger than the powered up state Complete Cell maintained against Goku and Gohan, but it's rather lucid that neither Gohan (without the aid of the SSj2 form) or Goku would last long against Complete Cell in his full power state (before SSj2).

[quote user="Freezer"]I will concure with you that it is very puzzling that there is no lightning, when the lightning was shown mere chapters ago. However, to claim Gohan was only SSJ1 is to accept that this part of the story simply doesn't make sense. Barring any forth wall breaking explanations, he simply had to be SSj2 to compete against a Cell-level threat. Vegeta makes no sign of disagreeing when Goku said Dabra is about as tough as Cell.[/quote]A 'Cell'-level threat - those are the keywords to accentuate. Whether Goku even felt Cell's Chi 'post-explosion' in the underworld is a subject of altercation. He could only be on equal footing with Complete Cell in his full power state at the most, and since Gohan lost enough power to be looked upon with lament within the 7 years I'd say putting two and two together works there. This is where I and others surmise that Gohan was at MSSj against Dabra. That, and from a psychological perspective, which will be addressed below...

[quote user="Freezer"]And yet he has no problem flaunting the form for Kibito at a tournament full of people, just to show off? He was asked simply to produce Super Saiyan, and instead delivers Super Saiyan 2. For this reason, I cannot agree with the theory that Gohan had some kind of psychological aversion to the form.[/quote]True. He displayed the form right in-front of Kibito's eyes, and the astounded Kibito castigated at the notion of a Super Saiyan up until then. But Gohan didn't actually fight him. One could easily argue that Spopovitch and Yamu interjecting is what'd be on reason of that, but Kibot wasn't necessarily a threat in the Zet Senshi's eyes at that point. While Gohan was obviously going to combat him, it wasn't a 'save the world' level of earnestness.

[quote user="Freezer"]In my opinion, Cell showed significant superiority over Gohan's mastered Super Saiyan form before he powered up. After toying with Gohan for a bit, he is able to speed blitz him effectively. Sure, Gohan is unharmed--but is still unable to do anything against Cell. Durring the Cell Junior fiasco, Gohan jumps at Cell; only to be kicked effortlessly away. And all this is before Cell took the last step towards full power.[/quote]Not really. Cell's ire was drawn rather quickly when Gohan managed to easily see right through and avert a repetoire of attacks that Goku had ado with. Complete Cell having to use his "real speed", Gohan remaining relatively unharmed, and his tenaciousness to fight, to me, speaks volumes and bounds, and all factor into Gohan being the stronger of the two. But only by a smidgen.

That aside, with all of the aforementioned I don't see how one could deduce Gohan to be a SSj2 against Dabra. If there were consistent bolts of lightning over his aura? Perhaps. But that wasn't the circumstance. Toriyama-sensei did not consistently make mistakes, and especially not mistakes so glancing.

Broly · 06-12-2007

4. The aura difference between Gohan and Goku are immensely different. Goku has lightning around him, Gohan doesn't. Goku's aura is more radiant and spikier than Gohan's aura.

5. That question was meant to be rhetorical.

7. My previous statement was pertaining to the fact that Dabra is not as powerful as a SSj2...you on the other hand say that he is.

8. Yet Gohan does not transform into a SSj2.

Is it nonsensical? The comparison that Goku makes? Yes. I've read around, and I've come to the conclusion that Goku was not comparing Cell and Dabra to or even close to the exact power. Not so in the way that you think. Goku wasn't saying that Dabura is equal to Perfect Cell [powered-up] or Perfect Cell [full power]. He was saying that they were in the....oh, how can I say this? ...that they were on the same page but not on the same sentence. They were in the same grade but not in the same class. I hope you understand my examples.

Look at this fact:

Gohan does not have any lightning/electricity around his aura while fighting Dabra in the Babidi Arc.

In meaning, he is not a Super Saiyan 2. Since he is not a Super Saiyan 2 that would make him a Super Saiyan 1. Now, as a SSj1, Gohan is weaker than his kid-self back in the Cell arc. Which would probably make him weaker than MSSj Goku [Cell arc]. In finalization, SSj1 Gohan is stronger than Perfect Cell [supressed], but weaker than MSSj Goku. I then believe Dabra to be at just below MSSj Gohan [Cell Arc].

05-12-2007	#62 (permalink)
Broly The Desolate One Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: You think I give a shit about where you think I stay? Posts: 7,538 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 31	Re: The Ki level of Dabra Yeah, the MSSj Vegeta [Buu Arc] would be able to take Dabra down with ease. __________________ $E:\Avatars\I am [not] God.JPG$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8 Silence is golden, ducktape is silver, a bullet is bronze.

06-11-2007	#64 (permalink)
Radditz (1) Earthling Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1 Rep Power: 0	Re: The Ki level of Dabra Also, let us not forget: FACT: Gohan is stated, STATED, to be weaker than he was when he fought Cell. FACT: Dabura is stated, STATED, to be as powerful as Cell. FACT: FPSSJ Gohan could not even begin to keep up with a holding back Perfect Cell. There is no way in hell Gohan was SSJ1 when he fought Dabura. And yes, this is a reiteration of the final paragraph of the previous post, but put into bulleted form.

06-11-2007	#66 (permalink)
LegendarySSJ7 Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: LA, CA, USA. Posts: 2,704 Rep Power: 45	Re: The Ki level of Dabra [quote user="Freezer"] Actually, an incredibly strong case for Gohan being SSj2 during the battle against Dabura was made on a different forum. I will now share this information with you. I will review the facts in chronological order. Firstly, Kaioshin sees Gohan go SSj2 at the Budokai, and senses his power. (Kaioshin states that this is an unexpectedly huge power, and he doesn't know if he'll be able to hold such power in place.) This indicates that Kaioshin was able to judge Gohan's strength as an SSJ2. Later, Kaioshin implies that he doesn't think the z-senshi can defeat Dabra. What's more is that Dabra attacked and killed Kibito, revealing his power. This instance is used by Vegeta in particular to judge Dabra's power. Vegeta: "We saw him outside, and he'd be no problem to us as long as we avoided his saliva." Later still, Pui Pui and Yakon are defeated. And now this part is key. Kaioshin states "These guys have access to incredible power, I cannot believe it. Then again, it was difficult for me to hold Gohan in place at the tournament... and he wasn't even at full power?" Bolding added for emphasis. It is at this point that Kaioshin aknowledged that Gohan wasn't even at full power at the tournament, but the level of power he saw was insufficent to defeat Dabra.[/quote]The fatal flaw in this is that it's not certain that either Kaio-shin or Kibito can genuinely sense chi - their method is rather wishwash and sensing one thing one moment and then making a statement that invalidates any of the aforementioned is a tad off-beat, so it's not a template I'd use to stake the notion of what Super Saiyan form Gohan was maintaining against Dabra. [quote user="Freezer"]Later Gohan is fighting evenly with Dabra. Considering the facts above, Gohan must have been a SSj2. As for the lack of lightning? It's not the first artisitc error on Toriyama-sensei's part. Need I remind you of the number of Piccolo's fingers in a certain chapter of Dragonball? The Buu saga itself is full of plot holes a plenty. More evidence that Gohan was SSj2 during his battle against Dabra is the appearence of his hair. When training with Goten as a regular Super Saiyan, Gohan's hair looks quite different then it does when he was fighting Dabra. His hair while fighitng Dabra is consistent of his other stated SSj2 instances.[/quote]Toriyama-sensei is forgetful, but not that much so. Consider it this way - Vegeta addresses Dabra with utter nonchalance, as does Goku, and acts as if the power he wielded certainly wasn't in a range to compete with any SSj2, and that Dabra wasn't behind... he was astringently behind. By their own accord. Add in the fact that on a consistent basis there's bolts of lightning dancing around any SSj2 aura maintained (the tip-off), and that both Dabra and Gohan were wheezing at the height of their battle (even if Dabra was tangibly stronger, only enough so to have quite a small advantage.... again, to reiterate, only the stronger of the two by a small amount), and that the last time Gohan fought whilst sustaining SSj2, it indirectly caused his own father's death and nigh the end of the world (a psychological standpoint, in short), and it provides a rock-solid belief that Gohan was certainly not SSj2 in his battle with Dabra. [quote user="Freezer"]My final piece of evidence that Gohan was SSj2 while fighting Dabra is the fact that if you people are considering Dabra to be around Perfect Cell's level; then it is quite ludacris to think Gohan could hold his own against him as a simple SSj1. Think about it. Perfect Cell was way beyond FPSSJ Gohan's level; and the Gohan of the Buu era is stated a few times by Vegeta to have grown weaker since that time. It wouldn't make sense unless you consider Dabra to be FAR under the power of Perfect Cell. I don't think anyone here would testify that Gohan could have defeated Perfect Cell without becoming SSj2..[/quote]Firstly, the Complete Cell you speak of that's leaps and bounds ahead of the MSSj Gohan of the Cell Saga Arc is in his full power state (prior to developing the SSj2 aura..... obviously alluding to him as a SSj2, post-explosion). Secondly, we usually consider him to be around Complete Cell's power in the powered up state he indulged in displaying and using against both Gohan (pre-SSj2) and Goku. Thirdly, read all the aforesaid on the fanfare of Gohan being SSj2 or not against Dabra. Given the previous response, I'd say the assertions I speak of work themselves out as such. __________________

06-11-2007	#68 (permalink)
Broly The Desolate One Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: You think I give a shit about where you think I stay? Posts: 7,538 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 31	Re: The Ki level of Dabra Gohan was not a Super Saiyan 2 when fighting Dabra. Here's why: DBZ - Vol. 22 Pg. 184 = Gohan: "...I get it now...!! Dad's fighting at a power level beyond the super saiyan limits...and probably Vegeta too...so the damage is greater...!!!" This obviously indicates that Gohan was not an SSj2 when he was fighting Dabra because the damage dealt between the two of them would have at least boosted Buu's revival gauge a bit. If Gohan was an SSj2 and Dabra is as powerful as you say he is, then the fight would've been much more intense and the damage given would've been enourmous. Another thing: Goku said that Dabra was stronger than he thought only because of the fact that he used magic. See here: DBZ - Vol. 22 Pg. 132 = Goku: "So he uses magic, huh? He's tougher than I thought." __________________ $E:\Avatars\I am [not] God.JPG$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8 Silence is golden, ducktape is silver, a bullet is bronze.

06-12-2007	#70 (permalink)
Broly The Desolate One Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: You think I give a shit about where you think I stay? Posts: 7,538 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 31	Re: The Ki level of Dabra 1. Okay. A little bit. But in comparison to Goku and Vegeta it is nothing. Despite how much weaker Gohan is than Vegeta and Goku, his power as an SSj2 should be more than enough to at least boost the gauge up half way or close to max. Goku and Vegeta only dealt each other two blows until the gauge made it to max. There's a BIG difference between the fight with Gohan and Dabra, and the fight with Goku and Vegeta. From the manga's point of view, each fighter in each fight only deal out one blow to each other. [all before Buu was awakened] If you compare the fight of Gohan and Dabra to the fight of Goku and Vegeta you will obviously see that Goku and Vegeta are putting out way more power than Gohan and Dabra just by standing. How could you possibly think Gohan is an SSj2? 2. Actually it is an indication that Gohan wasn't because if he was then the gauge would've been more than 1/20th of the way to max from the half way point. 3. Well, Goku says that Dabra and Cell are "about" the same. If you look up "about" in the dictionary the definition is "close to; near". Dabra was weaker than Perfect Cell [powered-up/pre-full power]. Plus, Gohan did catch up on his training a bit more before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, so that would make their powers even closer. 4. Vol. 22 Pg. 65 = Vegeta: "I'm saying Dabra's not as terrible as you think. We saw him outside, and we could easily [<key word] have handled him as long as we dodged his saliva! Kibito was just incompetent, that's all." Lord of Lords: "... Goku...is this true?" Goku: "...Yeah. At the level we are now, anyway. He would've been bad news before though." "...the level we are now..." is a quote referring to their SSj2 capabilities. Goku talks about how they would've had a hard time with Dabra if they were to fight him in the Cell Arc because back then they were all below Perfect Cell [powered-up]. __________________ $E:\Avatars\I am [not] God.JPG$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8 Silence is golden, ducktape is silver, a bullet is bronze.

06-12-2007	#72 (permalink)
LegendarySSJ7 Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: LA, CA, USA. Posts: 2,704 Rep Power: 45	Re: The Ki level of Dabra [quote user="Freezer"]Kaioshin has shown at least three examples of being able to perfectly sense ki. There's the one I already mentioned (Him not knowing if he could hold "such power" when Gohan displayed SSj2 at the tournament). The other is when Goku goes SSj3 to fight against Fat Buu. At this point Kaioshin identifies the ki they are feeling all the way from Kaioshin Kai to indeed be Goku. The third example is when Super Buu is first formed. Even from the Kaioshin Kai he could sense this event along with everyone else.[/quote]One could still contest that he had no chi-sensing capacity when he cautioned the Zet Senshi about a tremendously weak Pocus (and the Yakon, with the gap between the two being quite stupefying when one thinks about it) in comparison, and that his assumptions of power were all based on reputation. Again, to reiterate, it's quite the grey area to dish out. [quote user="Freezer"]Goku actually makes somewhat of a retraction on that when he later says that Dabra is "tougher then I thought". And he had first compared Dabra with Cell. Is Cell an opponent who could be defeated withou the use of SSj2? Even for pre-explosion Cell, the answer in this users opinion is definitly not. Combine that with the fact that Gohan is stated to now be weaker then the Cell-ear Gohan, and I am thoroughly confused by the idea of SSj1 Gohan being a match for a Cell-level threat.[/quote]Tougher than he thought, but still someone he would scoff at the notion of fighting. He would not scoff at the notion of fighting a SSj2. And I don't quite understand where seeing the idea, on my part, of furthering the notion of Cell Games Gohan (pre-SSj2) being a match for Complete Cell, is coming from. He was only marginally stronger than the powered up state Complete Cell maintained against Goku and Gohan, but it's rather lucid that neither Gohan (without the aid of the SSj2 form) or Goku would last long against Complete Cell in his full power state (before SSj2). [quote user="Freezer"]I will concure with you that it is very puzzling that there is no lightning, when the lightning was shown mere chapters ago. However, to claim Gohan was only SSJ1 is to accept that this part of the story simply doesn't make sense. Barring any forth wall breaking explanations, he simply had to be SSj2 to compete against a Cell-level threat. Vegeta makes no sign of disagreeing when Goku said Dabra is about as tough as Cell.[/quote]A 'Cell'-level threat - those are the keywords to accentuate. Whether Goku even felt Cell's Chi 'post-explosion' in the underworld is a subject of altercation. He could only be on equal footing with Complete Cell in his full power state at the most, and since Gohan lost enough power to be looked upon with lament within the 7 years I'd say putting two and two together works there. This is where I and others surmise that Gohan was at MSSj against Dabra. That, and from a psychological perspective, which will be addressed below... [quote user="Freezer"]And yet he has no problem flaunting the form for Kibito at a tournament full of people, just to show off? He was asked simply to produce Super Saiyan, and instead delivers Super Saiyan 2. For this reason, I cannot agree with the theory that Gohan had some kind of psychological aversion to the form.[/quote]True. He displayed the form right in-front of Kibito's eyes, and the astounded Kibito castigated at the notion of a Super Saiyan up until then. But Gohan didn't actually fight him. One could easily argue that Spopovitch and Yamu interjecting is what'd be on reason of that, but Kibot wasn't necessarily a threat in the Zet Senshi's eyes at that point. While Gohan was obviously going to combat him, it wasn't a 'save the world' level of earnestness. [quote user="Freezer"]In my opinion, Cell showed significant superiority over Gohan's mastered Super Saiyan form before he powered up. After toying with Gohan for a bit, he is able to speed blitz him effectively. Sure, Gohan is unharmed--but is still unable to do anything against Cell. Durring the Cell Junior fiasco, Gohan jumps at Cell; only to be kicked effortlessly away. And all this is before Cell took the last step towards full power.[/quote]Not really. Cell's ire was drawn rather quickly when Gohan managed to easily see right through and avert a repetoire of attacks that Goku had ado with. Complete Cell having to use his "real speed", Gohan remaining relatively unharmed, and his tenaciousness to fight, to me, speaks volumes and bounds, and all factor into Gohan being the stronger of the two. But only by a smidgen. That aside, with all of the aforementioned I don't see how one could deduce Gohan to be a SSj2 against Dabra. If there were consistent bolts of lightning over his aura? Perhaps. But that wasn't the circumstance. Toriyama-sensei did not consistently make mistakes, and especially not mistakes so glancing. __________________

06-12-2007	#73 (permalink)
Broly The Desolate One Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: You think I give a shit about where you think I stay? Posts: 7,538 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 31	Re: The Ki level of Dabra 4. The aura difference between Gohan and Goku are immensely different. Goku has lightning around him, Gohan doesn't. Goku's aura is more radiant and spikier than Gohan's aura. 5. That question was meant to be rhetorical. 7. My previous statement was pertaining to the fact that Dabra is not as powerful as a SSj2...you on the other hand say that he is. 8. Yet Gohan does not transform into a SSj2. Is it nonsensical? The comparison that Goku makes? Yes. I've read around, and I've come to the conclusion that Goku was not comparing Cell and Dabra to or even close to the exact power. Not so in the way that you think. Goku wasn't saying that Dabura is equal to Perfect Cell [powered-up] or Perfect Cell [full power]. He was saying that they were in the....oh, how can I say this? ...that they were on the same page but not on the same sentence. They were in the same grade but not in the same class. I hope you understand my examples. Look at this fact: Gohan does not have any lightning/electricity around his aura while fighting Dabra in the Babidi Arc. In meaning, he is not a Super Saiyan 2. Since he is not a Super Saiyan 2 that would make him a Super Saiyan 1. Now, as a SSj1, Gohan is weaker than his kid-self back in the Cell arc. Which would probably make him weaker than MSSj Goku [Cell arc]. In finalization, SSj1 Gohan is stronger than Perfect Cell [supressed], but weaker than MSSj Goku. I then believe Dabra to be at just below MSSj Gohan [Cell Arc]. __________________ $E:\Avatars\I am [not] God.JPG$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8 Silence is golden, ducktape is silver, a bullet is bronze.