Olibu vs. LSSJ Burori (Movie 8) - Page 3

Broly The LSSJ · 08-26-2008

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Originally Posted by Majuub

That was in the other world tournament which took place after Cell's death, why wouldn't he be on his Super Perfect state? He suddenly lost the Zenkai boost because he died? Going by logic, Goku should have also lost all his Zenkais when he died, same goes for Vegeta. Cell was in his Super Perfect state, he just got manhandled by Pikkon and couldn't do anything. You choose to believe he wasn't in his Super Perfect state to give Broly the advantage. Kind of like you say Gohan was SSJ2, when there isn't a single hint to imply he was. There is nothing to suggest Cell lost his Zenkai boost and you choose to believe he did?

Actually, I don't think he was in his Super Perfect form for the simple fact he didn't power up or have any lightning surrounding him, nowhere did I say he necessarily lost his zenkai in Other World. And I don't think Gohan was a SSJ2 in movie 10 because of this and other reasons.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Dirt marks are red and cause scratchs. You might want to pause the video an see the horizontal red scratches there was on his body. The scratches were caused by friction resulting from Gohan's attack, I don't see why there would be dirt, especially such a huge trace of dirt, unless Gohan's foot was as big as a dinosaur's I don't see why the mark would be so large.

Edit: It wasn even his foot, it was his knee, which makes it worst for your argument because I fail to see how a knee could leave dirt on someone, especially when it is covered by clothing.

The point isn't this though, we were debating wether or not LSSJ Broly vs SSJ Gohan was more one-sided than Vegeta vs Kiwi. Vegeta finished Kiwi in a couple of seconds, didn't take a hit, was too fast for Kiwi to touch him and caught him in a second because he had a massive speed advantage. Broly didn't finish Gohan in a matter of seconds, he did took a good hit, even if he was suprised, he still lost the power struggle( I seriously doubt Kiwi would have done that had he had one against Vegeta) he didn't catch Gohan in the blink of an eye because he had a massive speed advantage. All that is directed towards the user Broly. Tell me why the fight between LSSJ Broly and SSJ Gohan is more one sided than the one between Kiwi and Vegeta.

I rewatched the fight after awhile and it turns out that Broly didn't have any scratches on him until he fell in the lava. The knee-kick to Broly's face didn't even leave a mark on him and notice that during the whole time before he fell in the lava, there weren't any of those scratches. Only when he comes out of the lava does he have all those marks on him which could mean that he didn't put up his shield right away. Plus, it makes sense because SSJ Adult Gohan is too weak against Broly to cause him any real damage which is obvious after all those hard blows that left him unaffected and because Broly owned a stronger version of Gohan in the first movie, remember?

Anyways, I said that Gohan broke free only because Broly let his guard down since he wasn't expecting Gohan to put up anymore of a fight which means he didn't lose any type of "power struggle." It was based on dumb luck. Their fight wasn't the same way because he wasn't giving the same amount of effort that Vegeta did against Cui, like when Vegeta wasn't smiling and tried harder when he punched him in the gut and because Broly likes to have fun and slowly torture his victims which is why he didn't end it as fast as he could have.

**Majuub** · 08-26-2008

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Actually, I don't think he was in his Super Perfect form for the simple fact he didn't power up or have any lightning surrounding him, nowhere did I say he necessarily lost his zenkai in Other World. And I don't think Gohan was a SSJ2 in movie 10 because of this and other reasons.

Cell isn't a saiyan, he doesn't need to power up in order to have his power. If Goku wants to use his full power, he has to go SSJ3 in order to do so, with Cell it isn't the case. Super Perfect Cell and Perfect Cell are the exact same being, only one has a Zenkai boost, the other has not. When Vegeta got beaten down by Recoom, he came back with a Zenkai and was much stronger than before, he also told Krillin to blast him so he could come back with another Zenkai. You don't choose wether or not you want the Zenkai, once you had a near death experience, there is a Zenkai plain and simple. The Cell who got beaten to death by Pikkon is the same one who blasted Gohan's arm. Also, this scene was filler, Vegeta was SSJ2 against Chibi Buu and he didn't have any lightning aura surrounding him. Same goes for Cell, he doesn't choose if the Zenkai has an influence on his power or not, the Zenkai just impose itself on Cell's body. Unless you're implying Cell can supress his power the exact same amount of power his Zenkai provided him. He just has more power than before, if you have evidence to suggest he was supressing it, then go ahead, I'll gladly read.

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I rewatched the fight after awhile and it turns out that Broly didn't have any scratches on him until he fell in the lava. The knee-kick to Broly's face didn't even leave a mark on him and notice that during the whole time before he fell in the lava, there weren't any of those scratches. Only when he comes out of the lava does he have all those marks on him which could mean that he didn't put up his shield right away. Plus, it makes sense because SSJ Adult Gohan is too weak against Broly to cause him any real damage which is obvious after all those hard blows that left him unaffected and because Broly owned a stronger version of Gohan in the first movie, remember?

I watched too and you are right, the knee didn't scratch Broly, it just pushed him back, that's about it.

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Anyways, I said that Gohan broke free only because Broly let his guard down since he wasn't expecting Gohan to put up anymore of a fight which means he didn't lose any type of "power struggle." It was based on dumb luck. Their fight wasn't the same way because he wasn't giving the same amount of effort that Vegeta did against Cui, like when Vegeta wasn't smiling and tried harder when he punched him in the gut and because Broly likes to have fun and slowly torture his victims which is why he didn't end it as fast as he could have.

Broly didn't let his guard down, he was just suprised Gohan was able to fight back. When he realized Gohan was stronger than he thought, it was already too late. Also, he had more than enough time to completely crush Gohan, Gohan got of his submission slowly, we've seen him struggle and gradually taking the upper hand. He didn't do that in a second. If he had done that quickly, yes Broly could have been suprised to a point where it was too late to crush Gohan, but he had more than enough time to revert the situation and he didn't do it. He just couldn't do it as it isn't that easy to just beat someone such as Gohan. Edit: We've also seen Broly tightening his grip on Gohan's wrist, meaning he was putting more power when he realized Gohan was getting off his submission.

Vegeta also likes to torture and slowly kill his opponent. Watch him against Semi Perfect Cell, tell me if he wasn't enjoying beating him down just for fun. As for Kiwi, Vegeta putted even less effort than Broly, he was smiling all along and Kiwi blasted him, only to realize that Vegeta had probably moved even before he atempted his cheap shot. Vegeta was never pissed by Kiwi trying to escape, he just screamed that Kiwi couldn't escape his fate and caught him in a second. Broly was pissed by Gohan's hit and had an angry expression when he was chasing him, he wanted to kill him but couldn't catch him. Had the difference been as great as the one between Kiwi and Vegeta, Broly would have caught him the exact same way. He would have just appeared before Gohan and would have laughed at his pathetic attempt to escape. I also provided anoher scan with Majin Buu catching Gohan in a matter of seconds, he too wanted to kill him. If the difference between Gohan and Broly was as great as the one between Vegeta and Kiwi, we wouldn't have call it a fight, it would have been a manslaughter. Gohan was able to hold his own for some time even if he was severly outmatched, Kiwi wouldn't have been able to do the same. You honestly picture Kiwi reverting a submission of Vegeta against Vegeta? Did Kiwi escape Vegeta like Gohan escaped Broly? You think Broly would have been able to blow up Gohan just by pointing his finger at him? No, he would have to put some effort to dispose of Gohan.

That's rather simple, I ask you guys to provide evidence as to why the fight of Broly vs Gohan would be more one sided than the one between Vegeta and Kiwi.

Broly · 08-27-2008

Back in the Saiyan saga, Piccolo was around 2,400 fighting Nappa, who was at 4000 himself. That is almost a 1.7x difference in power, and he and Krillin were still able to give him damage in their attacks. Even though Nappa was strong enough to pummel and kill any of them one on one very easily, Piccolo was still able to damage Nappa with his punches and chi blasts. He left a burnt mark on Nappas back. So obviously Kiwi is able to damage Vegeta here with only a difference in power of 1.33. Gohan wasn’t able to give Broly even a scratch. None of his attacks seemed to give pain to Broly at all. And on the other hand, Broly’s attacks were taking a big toll on Gohan, and that shows the difference between their strength. Both of them landed the same amount of attacks on each other, but look which one of them was easily defeated. Gohan couldn’t have been 1.15x weaker than him as you suggest, he was far below Broly’s power. While Gohan’s attacks were strong enough to push Broly backwards and cause him to let go of his grip [whether by force or by his surprise], they are evidently not strong enough to make Broly hurt, outwardly or inwardly. Broly was also not slower. If you watch it again, Broly was pushed back by Gohan’s attack, and then he chased after him. Gohan was huffing quickly as he dashed towards the lava. Broly was right behind him. Broly came close to catching him, but it looked as if Gohan juked him out the first time. The second time Broly goes to snatch him, the wave of lava catches up with Broly and swallows him, and Gohan barely escapes it. If anything Broly was faster for almost catching him.

Broly likes to toy around with his opponents. This has been shown in his first two movies a ton. He rarely shows his true fighting power in battle, as almost all his opponents were quite a bit weaker than him and he was shown to be playing around with them as if they posed no threat [the only exception of this is probably Movie 11]. I think in this fight between him and Gohan it was a bit more serious than even his battle with the Zet Senshi in Movie 8, but Broly was still smiling his way through Gohan’s punches and kicks.

After Broly came out of the lava he had been hurt externally. There were cuts and scratches over his body, but nothing major. This really could’ve weakened his power. But, since he didn’t seem to be bothered by the damage at all, I think he could’ve been holding back his strength in his last chi blast against MSSjin Gohan. It was after all a seemingly puny exertion of power on his part. And even after Goku came back, he still had ample amounts of energy in reserve, ready to rain down on them if need be. Really though, no matter if you look at Broly being weaker than an SSjin2 here, he was nevertheless showing great dominance over his opponents [Goku, Gohan, and Goten] without much effort. Meaning, he was indeed holding back power. If he had reserves [that’s shown], then he has the power to crush them without resistance. And putting that in light with the reasons why I think Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 in the beginning, doesn’t hurt the fact that Gohan was only Super Saiyan 1 here, towards the end of Movie 10. He was still holding back power. The only reason why Broly lost the whole battle is because of Trunks’ intervention. His chi blast, though vastly weaker than LSSjin Broly’s chi blasts, stood in the way, and somehow blocked Broly’s chi from giving further power to his chi orb. Broly’s orb was then gradually overpowered as Goku, Gohan, and Goten united their chi into a single stream and penetrated it, shattering the weakening ball of chi. Broly’s chi blasts gave his chi orb additional power and helped sustain it, but of course without them, those being stopped by the ball of energy Trunks launched in the way, its power started to wane. That’s how they were able to defeat him. The Super Triple Kamehameha was not strong enough to penetrate Broly’s ki shield, but it was strong enough to at least push him into the Sun.

Ames · 08-27-2008

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Originally Posted by Broly

Back in the Saiyan saga, Piccolo was around 2,400 fighting Nappa, who was at 4000 himself. That is almost a 1.7x difference in power, and he and Krillin were still able to give him damage in their attacks. Even though Nappa was strong enough to pummel and kill any of them one on one very easily, Piccolo was still able to damage Nappa with his punches and chi blasts. He left a burnt mark on Nappas back. So obviously Kiwi is able to damage Vegeta here with only a difference in power of 1.33.

It seems earlier battles that adhere to low power levels [in general] show the true difference in strength between two opponents. Sure, it is a 1.7x difference but the question is whether Nappa was physically capable of a similar feat [with a PL of 4,000] as, lets say, Bejita in his encounter with Cui. It's shown from time to time, the stronger the user gets, the smaller the gap in PL's can be to display such domination over the opponent. Evidence > Numbers, in this case.

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Originally Posted by Broly

While Gohan’s attacks were strong enough to push Broly backwards and cause him to let go of his grip [whether by force or by his surprise], they are evidently not strong enough to make Broly hurt, outwardly or inwardly. Broly was also not slower. If you watch it again, Broly was pushed back by Gohan’s attack, and then he chased after him. Gohan was huffing quickly as he dashed towards the lava. Broly was right behind him. Broly came close to catching him, but it looked as if Gohan juked him out the first time. The second time Broly goes to snatch him, the wave of lava catches up with Broly and swallows him, and Gohan barely escapes it. If anything Broly was faster for almost catching him.

Judging by Burori's facial expressions, the knee to the face caused some form of stress, likely pain. Of course, his persona isn't of that to show such emotion, just lifelessness and chaos. The pursue of Son Gohan [by Burori] ends with a clip showing the relative distance of the two and then Burori reaching out as if he was going to grab Son Gohan [for some odd reason]. Unless there is something showing him directly on Son Gohan's rear, then there is really no way to judge whether or not he was going to catch him.

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Originally Posted by Broly

After Broly came out of the lava he had been hurt externally. There were cuts and scratches over his body, but nothing major. This really could’ve weakened his power. But, since he didn’t seem to be bothered by the damage at all, I think he could’ve been holding back his strength in his last chi blast against MSSjin Gohan. It was after all a seemingly puny exertion of power on his part. And even after Goku came back, he still had ample amounts of energy in reserve, ready to rain down on them if need be.

I can agree in a sense, but it is also in Son Gohan's persona to hold back his true power. The only sense of the anger and malice we see Son Gohan perform [similar to his emotions when he ascends to a SSJ2] was when he broke Burorii's hold, twice. The fact that he did that out of pure emotion shows he was holding back a whole other level [in terms of power]. if not, he would not have been able to break free.

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Originally Posted by Broly

The only reason why Broly lost the whole battle is because of Trunks’ intervention. His chi blast, though vastly weaker than LSSjin Broly’s chi blasts, stood in the way, and somehow blocked Broly’s chi from giving further power to his chi orb. Broly’s orb was then gradually overpowered as Goku, Gohan, and Goten united their chi into a single stream and penetrated it, shattering the weakening ball of chi. Broly’s chi blasts gave his chi orb additional power and helped sustain it, but of course without them, those being stopped by the ball of energy Trunks launched in the way, its power started to wane. That’s how they were able to defeat him. The Super Triple Kamehameha was not strong enough to penetrate Broly’s ki shield, but it was strong enough to at least push him into the Sun.

Lets be reasonable here, although that specific scenario is conspicuous, a weakened Base Torankusu [Pre-ROSAT] Ki blast would/did absolutely nothing to judge the outcome of the battle.

Broly The LSSJ · 08-27-2008

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Cell isn't a saiyan, he doesn't need to power up in order to have his power. If Goku wants to use his full power, he has to go SSJ3 in order to do so, with Cell it isn't the case. Super Perfect Cell and Perfect Cell are the exact same being, only one has a Zenkai boost, the other has not. When Vegeta got beaten down by Recoom, he came back with a Zenkai and was much stronger than before, he also told Krillin to blast him so he could come back with another Zenkai. You don't choose wether or not you want the Zenkai, once you had a near death experience, there is a Zenkai plain and simple. The Cell who got beaten to death by Pikkon is the same one who blasted Gohan's arm. Also, this scene was filler, Vegeta was SSJ2 against Chibi Buu and he didn't have any lightning aura surrounding him. Same goes for Cell, he doesn't choose if the Zenkai has an influence on his power or not, the Zenkai just impose itself on Cell's body. Unless you're implying Cell can supress his power the exact same amount of power his Zenkai provided him. He just has more power than before, if you have evidence to suggest he was supressing it, then go ahead, I'll gladly read.

Yet he still has Saiyan cell's inside of him so I don't see why he wouldn't need to power up like Gohan did from a SSJ to a SSJ2 right before he and Cell were about to square off again after Cell came back from his near death experience. This particular zenkai gave him a whole new form which is comparable to that of a SSJ2 being that he now has lightning surging around him and did alot better against Gohan than before. Obviously, he still has the zenkai so they are treated as different forms and not the same exact thing. The Cell who got blown away by Pikkon was actually in the same form as he was when he took out his reserves and displayed his maximum power against SSJ2 Teen Gohan. Thats how I see it, and just because SSJ2 Vegeta didn't have lightning when he fought Kid Buu doesn't mean he was any different. Its the same thing when he was Majin about to fight Goku. He was a SSJ and then transforms with lightning. If they have it at some point, then thats all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Broly didn't let his guard down, he was just suprised Gohan was able to fight back. When he realized Gohan was stronger than he thought, it was already too late. Also, he had more than enough time to completely crush Gohan, Gohan got of his submission slowly, we've seen him struggle and gradually taking the upper hand. He didn't do that in a second. If he had done that quickly, yes Broly could have been suprised to a point where it was too late to crush Gohan, but he had more than enough time to revert the situation and he didn't do it. He just couldn't do it as it isn't that easy to just beat someone such as Gohan. Edit: We've also seen Broly tightening his grip on Gohan's wrist, meaning he was putting more power when he realized Gohan was getting off his submission.

Broly wasn't even, if hardly trying to pull Gohan by the wrists when he began to break free of his manhold, he only had a grip. Before hand, Broly was about to rip his arms off and made him struggle immensely. He didn't feel the need to do anything more because he thought Gohan was too worn out and gave up trying to resist the submission. The point is that Gohan by this time had abit more fighting skill under his belt and Broly wasn't expecting him to pull off that move since the younger (and stronger) version of himself in movie 8 wouldn't of done something like this. It had to do with that and not just strength on his behalf and if Broly actually felt the need to try against this pathetic version of Gohan, he would've done so but he gives his opponents more than a chance to prove themselves. All he has to do is stand there like a rock and take their hardest attacks with a smile on his face before unleashing all the ownage, showing that their efforts are futile.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Vegeta also likes to torture and slowly kill his opponent. Watch him against Semi Perfect Cell, tell me if he wasn't enjoying beating him down just for fun. As for Kiwi, Vegeta putted even less effort than Broly, he was smiling all along and Kiwi blasted him, only to realize that Vegeta had probably moved even before he atempted his cheap shot. Vegeta was never pissed by Kiwi trying to escape, he just screamed that Kiwi couldn't escape his fate and caught him in a second. Broly was pissed by Gohan's hit and had an angry expression when he was chasing him, he wanted to kill him but couldn't catch him. Had the difference been as great as the one between Kiwi and Vegeta, Broly would have caught him the exact same way. He would have just appeared before Gohan and would have laughed at his pathetic attempt to escape. I also provided anoher scan with Majin Buu catching Gohan in a matter of seconds, he too wanted to kill him. If the difference between Gohan and Broly was as great as the one between Vegeta and Kiwi, we wouldn't have call it a fight, it would have been a manslaughter. Gohan was able to hold his own for some time even if he was severly outmatched, Kiwi wouldn't have been able to do the same. You honestly picture Kiwi reverting a submission of Vegeta against Vegeta? Did Kiwi escape Vegeta like Gohan escaped Broly? You think Broly would have been able to blow up Gohan just by pointing his finger at him? No, he would have to put some effort to dispose of Gohan.

That's rather simple, I ask you guys to provide evidence as to why the fight of Broly vs Gohan would be more one sided than the one between Vegeta and Kiwi.

The real undisputable point here is that LSSJ Broly has an unbelievably enormous edge on SSJ Adult Gohan. You can't deny that fact based on everything he did, especially in the last movie which was a weaker version of himself against some opponents who were stronger than SSJ Adult Gohan and all coming at him at once. Broly was toying with Gohan just as Vegeta was toying with Cui. Had he felt the need to give more effort, he wouldn't of been holding back and showed his true power. The only reasonable circumstance he would do so is if his opponents were actually worthy of a challenge, thus a more serious attitude. Broly could've easily caught Gohan had the knee in the face not slowed him down and Gohan was zipping away in desperation to escape yet we see Broly catch right up to him and besides that, he may not have even been going as fast as he could because as a LSSJ, he retains his speed regardless of the huge muscles and that makes him faster than his SSJ form. Cui would've caused Vegeta some damage because in your example of his fight with Semi Perfect Cell, USSJ Vegeta had a huge edge on him yet when Vegeta let him have that free shot, the punch to his face actually made him bleed yet nothing that Gohan did could affect Broly in such a manner. I think that also speaks for how their fight was more one sided than Vegeta vs. Cui and given that Broly was so much stronger, I think he could also take out Gohan in a single special finishing move. He just enjoyed toying with Gohan using mostly lighthearted melee attacks and watching him fall to his knees so obviously, thats why Broly let him live longer because its in his ruthless nature to give them a slow and painful death so he can relish every moment of their suffering.

Broly · 08-28-2008

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Originally Posted by Ames

It seems earlier battles that adhere to low power levels [in general] show the true difference in strength between two opponents. Sure, it is a 1.7x difference but the question is whether Nappa was physically capable of a similar feat [with a PL of 4,000] as, lets say, Bejita in his encounter with Cui. It's shown from time to time, the stronger the user gets, the smaller the gap in PL's can be to display such domination over the opponent. Evidence > Numbers, in this case. Judging by Burori's facial expressions, the knee to the face caused some form of stress, likely pain. Of course, his persona isn't of that to show such emotion, just lifelessness and chaos. The pursue of Son Gohan [by Burori] ends with a clip showing the relative distance of the two and then Burori reaching out as if he was going to grab Son Gohan [for some odd reason]. Unless there is something showing him directly on Son Gohan's rear, then there is really no way to judge whether or not he was going to catch him.

I can agree in a sense, but it is also in Son Gohan's persona to hold back his true power. The only sense of the anger and malice we see Son Gohan perform [similar to his emotions when he ascends to a SSJ2] was when he broke Burorii's hold, twice. The fact that he did that out of pure emotion shows he was holding back a whole other level [in terms of power]. if not, he would not have been able to break free.Lets be reasonable here, although that specific scenario is conspicuous, a weakened Base Torankusu [Pre-ROSAT] Ki blast would/did absolutely nothing to judge the outcome of the battle.

The multiplier differences are the same throughout. I disagree with you on this.
Broly's face shows painful expression when he feels pain. I don't think pain is what he felt when Gohan's knee slammed into his face, it was a lot more surprise, which led to anger.
I can agree, Gohan is shown with huge reserves of power that are "hidden". I believe he is able to call upon this strength by extreme emotion and need. He has this reserved power locked until the Fusion Saga. But just because he caused Broly to break his hold, doesn't mean that the will power he used to escape Broly was brought about by his SSjin2 reserves. He had already unlocked that level of strength. No, I believe it was the reserves of strength he still had hidden that he used against Broly. Actually, I find it curious that the second time Gohan breaks from LSsjin Broly's hold, Broly let's go after Gohan kicks him. And Gohan was in base.

Ames · 08-29-2008

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Originally Posted by Broly

The multiplier differences are the same throughout. I disagree with you on this.

It really wasn't a valid point on my part, just an assumption. Yes, the multiplier is the same throughout but as the series progresses, each fighter increases in strength. Through the increase, they can obviously take much more of a beating without creating a strain on the body that a fighter would have at a lower power level, earlier in the series. In relative terms,the battles that seem relatively lopsided [with the same multiplier] and should end quick, can be dragged on. Thus, proving why multipliers and PL's should be thrown out of the equation.

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Originally Posted by Broly

Broly's face shows painful expression when he feels pain. I don't think pain is what he felt when Gohan's knee slammed into his face, it was a lot more surprise, which led to anger.

I can agree in a sense. It's actually impossible to tell whether he feels pain, he never shows it and it doesn't fit his character persona. It seems like he lacks that attribute and rage is his motivator.

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Originally Posted by Broly

I can agree, Gohan is shown with huge reserves of power that are "hidden". I believe he is able to call upon this strength by extreme emotion and need. He has this reserved power locked until the Fusion Saga. But just because he caused Broly to break his hold, doesn't mean that the will power he used to escape Broly was brought about by his SSjin2 reserves. He had already unlocked that level of strength. No, I believe it was the reserves of strength he still had hidden that he used against Broly. Actually, I find it curious that the second time Gohan breaks from LSsjin Broly's hold, Broly let's go after Gohan kicks him. And Gohan was in base.

I only hold true to my opinion because of the many years of inactivity. Yes, Son Gohan unlocked that potential earlier, but he lost his "grip" on it during the years of peace. It seems like it's just common sense, really.

**Majuub** · 08-29-2008

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Back in the Saiyan saga, Piccolo was around 2,400 fighting Nappa, who was at 4000 himself. That is almost a 1.7x difference in power, and he and Krillin were still able to give him damage in their attacks. Even though Nappa was strong enough to pummel and kill any of them one on one very easily, Piccolo was still able to damage Nappa with his punches and chi blasts. He left a burnt mark on Nappas back. So obviously Kiwi is able to damage Vegeta here with only a difference in power of 1.33. Gohan wasn’t able to give Broly even a scratch. None of his attacks seemed to give pain to Broly at all. And on the other hand, Broly’s attacks were taking a big toll on Gohan, and that shows the difference between their strength. Both of them landed the same amount of attacks on each other, but look which one of them was easily defeated. Gohan couldn’t have been 1.15x weaker than him as you suggest, he was far below Broly’s power. While Gohan’s attacks were strong enough to push Broly backwards and cause him to let go of his grip [whether by force or by his surprise], they are evidently not strong enough to make Broly hurt, outwardly or inwardly. Broly was also not slower. If you watch it again, Broly was pushed back by Gohan’s attack, and then he chased after him. Gohan was huffing quickly as he dashed towards the lava. Broly was right behind him. Broly came close to catching him, but it looked as if Gohan juked him out the first time. The second time Broly goes to snatch him, the wave of lava catches up with Broly and swallows him, and Gohan barely escapes it. If anything Broly was faster for almost catching him.

Your whole argument is based on one weak and easy to counter fact. I'll post all the hits the Z fighters got on Nappa.

The others were from Gohan when he was enraged and his PL could have easily escaladed past the 10,000's.

Note something about ALL these hits? They were both extremely good blows at Nappa but he was ALWAYS unawared and they caught him by suprise EACH and EVERY time. Nappa is an idiot and unskilled fighter who doesn't pay attention to his surrounding, he doesn't know how to control power and he doesn't know how to be a smart tactical fighter.

It's easy to damage someone when that someone is caught by suprise. Kinda like the first Kikoho from Tienshinhan seemed to be the most damaging since Semi Perfect Cell was completely taken by surprise. Chichi could also kill Goku with a knife if he was asleep, that doesn't mean Chchi with knife>Goku.

Now, I'll show you what happens when Nappa is actually fully aware of what happens around him.

With the Kienzan, Nappa was actually willing to take it head on but he was unaware of how dangerous was the attack. If he was going to just take the hit, it means a regular powerful Ki attack from Krillin would have actually done nothing. Why? Because he was fully aware of what was going on. Find me one instance where Gohan got a strong suprise blow at Broly and it didn't phase Broly.

All your argument was based on one meagre fact that was now utterly crushed. Bring me something else relevant and I'll gladly accept your theory.

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Yet he still has Saiyan cell's inside of him so I don't see why he wouldn't need to power up like Gohan did from a SSJ to a SSJ2 right before he and Cell were about to square off again after Cell came back from his near death experience. This particular zenkai gave him a whole new form which is comparable to that of a SSJ2 being that he now has lightning surging around him and did alot better against Gohan than before. Obviously, he still has the zenkai so they are treated as different forms and not the same exact thing. The Cell who got blown away by Pikkon was actually in the same form as he was when he took out his reserves and displayed his maximum power against SSJ2 Teen Gohan. Thats how I see it, and just because SSJ2 Vegeta didn't have lightning when he fought Kid Buu doesn't mean he was any different. Its the same thing when he was Majin about to fight Goku. He was a SSJ and then transforms with lightning. If they have it at some point, then thats all there is to it.

He has saiyans cells within him, he hasn't got the complete genetic code. Cell actually takes several abilites from the people his cells are composed of. If he had the total package, he would have been able to supress his power through different form just like Frieza. Cell never showed the ability to do something exactly similar to the SSJ stages. He can't distinctly go from base to SSJ2. If he can, please show me how and why. Cell got his Zenkai boost after he had blown up, Vegeta got his Zenkai boost when he was beaten up by Recoom. When Vegeta woke up and battled Frieza, had he lost or was there evidence that he was supressing his Zenkai? Same goes for Cell, if he was so stronger than Pikkon in his post Zenkai state, then he would have taken the first hit and turned the fight the other way around. Pikkon flat out owned him. Cell coould have defend himself by just pushing Pikkon backward with a Kiai if he was stronger than him in his post Zenkai state. Cell did nothing, therefore, Pikkon is stronger than him. You have also yet to bring evidences as to why Cell(post Zenkai) would be stronger than Pikkon if he wasn't actually in his post Zenkai state.

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Broly wasn't even, if hardly trying to pull Gohan by the wrists when he began to break free of his manhold, he only had a grip. Before hand, Broly was about to rip his arms off and made him struggle immensely. He didn't feel the need to do anything more because he thought Gohan was too worn out and gave up trying to resist the submission. The point is that Gohan by this time had abit more fighting skill under his belt and Broly wasn't expecting him to pull off that move since the younger (and stronger) version of himself in movie 8 wouldn't of done something like this. It had to do with that and not just strength on his behalf and if Broly actually felt the need to try against this pathetic version of Gohan, he would've done so but he gives his opponents more than a chance to prove themselves. All he has to do is stand there like a rock and take their hardest attacks with a smile on his face before unleashing all the ownage, showing that their efforts are futile.

Broly was groaning, watch the video, they were both putting efforts in this struggle. Only, Broly thought he was so strong that it was useless to put his full power in this. As I stated earlier, he tightened his grip when he realized Gohan was reverting the submission, if he did that it means that he was aware Gohan was putting more effort into it. We saw when he was suprised that he did try to put even more effort but he couldn't do it in due time and got kicked. Simply because the massive advantage you are suggesting never existed. Broly had a clear and big advantage, that's it.

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The real undisputable point here is that LSSJ Broly has an unbelievably enormous edge on SSJ Adult Gohan. You can't deny that fact based on everything he did, especially in the last movie which was a weaker version of himself against some opponents who were stronger than SSJ Adult Gohan and all coming at him at once. Broly was toying with Gohan just as Vegeta was toying with Cui. Had he felt the need to give more effort, he wouldn't of been holding back and showed his true power. The only reasonable circumstance he would do so is if his opponents were actually worthy of a challenge, thus a more serious attitude. Broly could've easily caught Gohan had the knee in the face not slowed him down and Gohan was zipping away in desperation to escape yet we see Broly catch right up to him and besides that, he may not have even been going as fast as he could because as a LSSJ, he retains his speed regardless of the huge muscles and that makes him faster than his SSJ form. Cui would've caused Vegeta some damage because in your example of his fight with Semi Perfect Cell, USSJ Vegeta had a huge edge on him yet when Vegeta let him have that free shot, the punch to his face actually made him bleed yet nothing that Gohan did could affect Broly in such a manner. I think that also speaks for how their fight was more one sided than Vegeta vs. Cui and given that Broly was so much stronger, I think he could also take out Gohan in a single special finishing move. He just enjoyed toying with Gohan using mostly lighthearted melee attacks and watching him fall to his knees so obviously, thats why Broly let him live longer because its in his ruthless nature to give them a slow and painful death so he can relish every moment of their suffering.

I never said Broly wasn't toying with Gohan, I said regardless of the circumstances, he couldn't have finished off Gohan like Vegeta killed Kiwi. You honestly think he could have pointed his fingers at him and blew up Gohan with sheer telekinetic power? I seriously doubt and unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, my mind isn't going to change anytime soon. I also think that most people who are viewing this conversation would actually agree with me and say that the battle between Vegeta and Kiwi was more one sided than the one between LSSJ Broly and SSJ(2) Gohan.

Broly was pissed at Gohan, yes he caught him and tried to hit him but Gohan dodged, Vegeta was pissed at Kiwi and not only did he caught him faster than broly caught Gohan but he had actually traveled a longer distance and was right on Kiwi's face. Broly was tired of Gohan and wanted his death, when he was chasing him he wasn't laughing, he was actually angry because he was tired of that stupid fight and wasn't happy with the knee on his chest.

You are both speculating. You think Broly could have had a more massive advantage, for all we know it might have been the wider the gap between them could be. You just speculate by saying Broly could have finished off Gohan like Vegeta finished off Kiwi. Broly didn't show the advantage Vegeta had over Kiwi, therefore he hadn't that kind of advantage. You are both Broly fans, obviously your biased will make you put him in the highest possible level. I'm baffled that Broly(the user) actually thinks LSS Broly is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.

You both thought I was done with you? Think again.

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Broly The LSSJ · 08-29-2008

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Originally Posted by Majuub

He has saiyans cells within him, he hasn't got the complete genetic code. Cell actually takes several abilites from the people his cells are composed of. If he had the total package, he would have been able to supress his power through different form just like Frieza. Cell never showed the ability to do something exactly similar to the SSJ stages. He can't distinctly go from base to SSJ2. If he can, please show me how and why. Cell got his Zenkai boost after he had blown up, Vegeta got his Zenkai boost when he was beaten up by Recoom. When Vegeta woke up and battled Frieza, had he lost or was there evidence that he was supressing his Zenkai? Same goes for Cell, if he was so stronger than Pikkon in his post Zenkai state, then he would have taken the first hit and turned the fight the other way around. Pikkon flat out owned him. Cell coould have defend himself by just pushing Pikkon backward with a Kiai if he was stronger than him in his post Zenkai state. Cell did nothing, therefore, Pikkon is stronger than him. You have also yet to bring evidences as to why Cell(post Zenkai) would be stronger than Pikkon if he wasn't actually in his post Zenkai state.

Cell never goes into a base form because he can't. Hes already in a SSJ type form based on the aura and you can hold back your power in any form, it all depends on whether you want to or not. The fact is he would transform into his Super Perfect form and then have lightning surrounding him, it just wouldn't be at all times. The other examples you gave are irrelevant since those characters were too weak to reach the levels we're talking about here. When Cell flew up in the air, he was going for Goku who was shown to be a half SSJ, similar to when he fought Lord Slug. All he needed was his Perfect form's maximum power to get the job done based on how Goku never reached SSJ2 yet. He wasn't expecting to fight Pikkon, shown by how he came out of nowhere and disposed of Cell before he got the chance to retaliate. And Super Perfect Cell is stronger than Pikkon for the obvious fact that he's reached a level comparative to SSJ2 while Pikkon has not. If he had, than he would've owned SSJ Goku yet he only proved to have a small advantage during their fight.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Broly was groaning, watch the video, they were both putting efforts in this struggle. Only, Broly thought he was so strong that it was useless to put his full power in this. As I stated earlier, he tightened his grip when he realized Gohan was reverting the submission, if he did that it means that he was aware Gohan was putting more effort into it. We saw when he was suprised that he did try to put even more effort but he couldn't do it in due time and got kicked. Simply because the massive advantage you are suggesting never existed. Broly had a clear and big advantage, that's it.

Notice that when Broly first grabs ahold of Gohan and starts torturing him, Broly was growling while laughing at the same time. The same thing happens while Gohan began to resist the submission so what you said means nothing because you're suggesting that he actually had to try when in fact, Broly was smiling the whole time until Gohan backflipped and knee-kicked him in the face since he wasn't expecting it. The only thing he was doing was keeping his grip and hardly trying to pull Gohan back. Like I said, he gives his opponents more than a chance to prove themselves and if he put in all of his effort, Gohan would've lost some limbs and been screaming for his daddy.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

I never said Broly wasn't toying with Gohan, I said regardless of the circumstances, he couldn't have finished off Gohan like Vegeta killed Kiwi. You honestly think he could have pointed his fingers at him and blew up Gohan with sheer telekinetic power? I seriously doubt and unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, my mind isn't going to change anytime soon. I also think that most people who are viewing this conversation would actually agree with me and say that the battle between Vegeta and Kiwi was more one sided than the one between LSSJ Broly and SSJ(2) Gohan.

Broly was pissed at Gohan, yes he caught him and tried to hit him but Gohan dodged, Vegeta was pissed at Kiwi and not only did he caught him faster than broly caught Gohan but he had actually traveled a longer distance and was right on Kiwi's face. Broly was tired of Gohan and wanted his death, when he was chasing him he wasn't laughing, he was actually angry because he was tired of that stupid fight and wasn't happy with the knee on his chest.

You are both speculating. You think Broly could have had a more massive advantage, for all we know it might have been the wider the gap between them could be. You just speculate by saying Broly could have finished off Gohan like Vegeta finished off Kiwi. Broly didn't show the advantage Vegeta had over Kiwi, therefore he hadn't that kind of advantage. You are both Broly fans, obviously your biased will make you put him in the highest possible level. I'm baffled that Broly(the user) actually thinks LSS Broly is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.

You both thought I was done with you? Think again.

Vegeta actually used the strongest special finishing move he had at the time to dispose of Cui and that was called Dirty Fireworks - the name kind of speaks for itself. I think if Broly used one of his special finishing moves such as the Eraser Cannon and it was executed thoroughly, Gohan would've been finished and turned to dust within that single attack but he was just using a bunch of small blasts along with some lighthearted melee attacks, hence how he was toying with Gohan and had such a massive edge. You also ignored my evidence on how this fight is more one sided than Vegeta vs. Cui so I'll re-state it:

Just like with Cui, Vegeta (USSJ) had a large edge during his fight with Semi Perfect Cell and when he let him get that free shot in towards the end of the episode, the punch to Vegeta's face actually made him bleed. Unlike Nappa, he was more than aware and took it head on. The same goes for Broly except he withstood all of Gohan's attacks with the greatest of ease. Nothing he did left the slightest scratch on him. If you can prove to me that Cui wouldn't of caused Vegeta a single scratch had he been able to get a shot in (which is pretty unlikely), then "I'll gladly accept your theory."

Like I explained in my last post, its possible that Broly wasn't even going as fast as he could and being that he doesn't lose any speed in his Legendary state, you can't expect the chase with Gohan to be his limit since hes alot faster than any SSJ form and thats exactly what Gohan was. Vegeta teleported part of the way in order to catch up to Cui and Broly did not while chasing Gohan, probably because he was too mad and wasn't thinking straight at the time which is known to happen.

Also, I think you're taking this debate abit too seriously. Me, nor my friend Broly here are biased towards our character whatsoever and give proper evidence to support our claims and I also believe that hes stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. Its not out of the question dude. If anything, you're biased against Broly here.

08-27-2008	#33 (permalink)
Broly The Desolate One Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: You think I give a shit about where you think I stay? Posts: 7,543 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 33	Re: Olibu vs. LSSJ Burori (Movie 8) Back in the Saiyan saga, Piccolo was around 2,400 fighting Nappa, who was at 4000 himself. That is almost a 1.7x difference in power, and he and Krillin were still able to give him damage in their attacks. Even though Nappa was strong enough to pummel and kill any of them one on one very easily, Piccolo was still able to damage Nappa with his punches and chi blasts. He left a burnt mark on Nappas back. So obviously Kiwi is able to damage Vegeta here with only a difference in power of 1.33. Gohan wasn’t able to give Broly even a scratch. None of his attacks seemed to give pain to Broly at all. And on the other hand, Broly’s attacks were taking a big toll on Gohan, and that shows the difference between their strength. Both of them landed the same amount of attacks on each other, but look which one of them was easily defeated. Gohan couldn’t have been 1.15x weaker than him as you suggest, he was far below Broly’s power. While Gohan’s attacks were strong enough to push Broly backwards and cause him to let go of his grip [whether by force or by his surprise], they are evidently not strong enough to make Broly hurt, outwardly or inwardly. Broly was also not slower. If you watch it again, Broly was pushed back by Gohan’s attack, and then he chased after him. Gohan was huffing quickly as he dashed towards the lava. Broly was right behind him. Broly came close to catching him, but it looked as if Gohan juked him out the first time. The second time Broly goes to snatch him, the wave of lava catches up with Broly and swallows him, and Gohan barely escapes it. If anything Broly was faster for almost catching him. Broly likes to toy around with his opponents. This has been shown in his first two movies a ton. He rarely shows his true fighting power in battle, as almost all his opponents were quite a bit weaker than him and he was shown to be playing around with them as if they posed no threat [the only exception of this is probably Movie 11]. I think in this fight between him and Gohan it was a bit more serious than even his battle with the Zet Senshi in Movie 8, but Broly was still smiling his way through Gohan’s punches and kicks. After Broly came out of the lava he had been hurt externally. There were cuts and scratches over his body, but nothing major. This really could’ve weakened his power. But, since he didn’t seem to be bothered by the damage at all, I think he could’ve been holding back his strength in his last chi blast against MSSjin Gohan. It was after all a seemingly puny exertion of power on his part. And even after Goku came back, he still had ample amounts of energy in reserve, ready to rain down on them if need be. Really though, no matter if you look at Broly being weaker than an SSjin2 here, he was nevertheless showing great dominance over his opponents [Goku, Gohan, and Goten] without much effort. Meaning, he was indeed holding back power. If he had reserves [that’s shown], then he has the power to crush them without resistance. And putting that in light with the reasons why I think Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 in the beginning, doesn’t hurt the fact that Gohan was only Super Saiyan 1 here, towards the end of Movie 10. He was still holding back power. The only reason why Broly lost the whole battle is because of Trunks’ intervention. His chi blast, though vastly weaker than LSSjin Broly’s chi blasts, stood in the way, and somehow blocked Broly’s chi from giving further power to his chi orb. Broly’s orb was then gradually overpowered as Goku, Gohan, and Goten united their chi into a single stream and penetrated it, shattering the weakening ball of chi. Broly’s chi blasts gave his chi orb additional power and helped sustain it, but of course without them, those being stopped by the ball of energy Trunks launched in the way, its power started to wane. That’s how they were able to defeat him. The Super Triple Kamehameha was not strong enough to penetrate Broly’s ki shield, but it was strong enough to at least push him into the Sun. __________________ $C:\Users\Silver Platter\Pictures\Broly_SSJ5_by_Gothax.jpg$