brolly vs goku ssj4 ,vegeta ssj2 - Page 3

Cableguy15 · 05-23-2008

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Well, the first one I noticed was the fact that the Movies 12 and 13 exhibited SSj2s without sparks, and the animators look to have switched with others after Movie 9. By Movie 10, you can easily tell that the DBZ Movies' art and drawing had been upgraded from what it was. Kinda had that Buu Arc feel to it.

I just watched some of Movie 12 and I can tell you that they didn't forget to add sparks. Watch Goku as he powers up from SSJ to SSJ3. You can see the sparks as the power up progresses. It's quite obvious that he was passing SSJ2 at the point at which the sparks start showing. Maybe you could try to argue that Vegeta was SSJ2 in movie 12 while fighting janemba, but all evidence certainly leads to him being only SSJ in the movie. Besides, why would SSJ3 have sparks in movie 12, while SSJ2 doesn't? Give TOEI some credit, I'm sure if they remember to make a SSJ3 possess sparks, they wont forget it with SSJ2.

Seeing as they didn't forget to add sparks in movie 12, that pretty much puts an end to your theory about different animators and how they never added sparks to SSJ2.(Which there's no proof of in the first place)

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Second thing I noticed was the fact that Broly received a Zenkai in Movie 10 because he was severely wounded through the chest. At that point in power he was at in Movie 8, he was literally residing in a power range which was the leaping point for SSj2.

Who says he got a zenkai? What proof of this is there? Zenkai's were all but disregarded by the time SSJs became common. Most noticably, Vegeta took a bad beating from Cell without getting a zenkai, Gohan fullfilled the definition of "Near death experience" from his encounter with Fat Buu and got nothing. The only thing that suggests Broly got a Zenkai is that he was badly injured, but if you go by them being badly injured, you might as well say anyone who gets badly injured after the frieza saga got a zenkai, and that doesn't work out too well.

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So, if you think Goku and Gohan were MSSjs in Movie 8, then Broly would have to be multiple times stronger than them.

Not really, I mean it only takes a 1.2x advantage (According to vegeta vs Dodoria) to dominate. Broly was tanking all of their attacks head on, but I really doubt he was anything more than 2x stronger than Goku, if not less.

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So, if you think Goku and Gohan were MSSjs in Movie 8, then Broly would have to be multiple times stronger than them. And if you took into account the OVA Movie, which TOEI did assemble into a movie, then this would only make sense because of Goku's and Piccolo's statements in that feature, claiming Broly and Hatchyack are nigh equal, and making mention of Mr. Satan. They never saw Mr. Satan until Goku and Gohan were well out the RoSaT. So Goku's statement indicates something important here.

Well I can't really argue here since I've never seen the OVA; Would it happen to take place after or durring the Cell games?

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Taking my points into mind, this is why I think it's very very possible for him to have received the same power-up as Cell did through the Zenkai he received after his very near-death experience. This would just make Gohan look stupid if he was about to combat Broly who is stronger than he was before, by a lot, and he was gonna fight him in a state that was weaker than what he first fought Broly in. It wouldn't make sense.

Well any zenkai is possible, but it doesn't make it true. There's really no indication he was any stronger in movie 10 at all.

I don't think canon Gohan and Gohan (Movie 10) are the same. Gohan from the Broly universe is clearly weaker than his canon self in movie 8, whether he's a MSSJ or not, seeing as he's weaker than Goku and is downplayed a lot. So it goes without saying that technically, he should be stronger in movie 10 compared to movie 8.

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Also, you can see Gohan's hair make two different appearances whilst in his super states. The first time he transforms we see him clearly with one hair-bang coming across his face, with a hairstyle very similar to SSj2. Second time he transforms, he has two hair-bangs coming across his face [when he was firing his Super Kamehameha], like if he were merely Super Saiyan. When they made this movie, it was around the time of the Saiyaman arc, I believe, when Gohan's SSj1 and SSj2 were distinctive. What's your feedback on this?

My feedback? Well I think "No sparks" is a greater proof than the way his hair is in certain states. As shown in movies 9 and 12, SSJ2s do have sparks in the movies, and I don't see much reason for that not to be the case in movie 10

SSJ4 Vegito · 05-23-2008

The OVA movie takes place shortly after Movie 8, Gohan can't go SSJ2 and Trunks has short hair. So it can't take place After or during the Cell Games.

Broly · 05-24-2008

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Originally Posted by Cableguy15

I just watched some of Movie 12 and I can tell you that they didn't forget to add sparks. Watch Goku as he powers up from SSJ to SSJ3. You can see the sparks as the power up progresses. It's quite obvious that he was passing SSJ2 at the point at which the sparks start showing. Maybe you could try to argue that Vegeta was SSJ2 in movie 12 while fighting janemba, but all evidence certainly leads to him being only SSJ in the movie. Besides, why would SSJ3 have sparks in movie 12, while SSJ2 doesn't? Give TOEI some credit, I'm sure if they remember to make a SSJ3 possess sparks, they wont forget it with SSJ2.

Seeing as they didn't forget to add sparks in movie 12, that pretty much puts an end to your theory about different animators and how they never added sparks to SSJ2.(Which there's no proof of in the first place)

Who says he got a zenkai? What proof of this is there? Zenkai's were all but disregarded by the time SSJs became common. Most noticably, Vegeta took a bad beating from Cell without getting a zenkai, Gohan fullfilled the definition of "Near death experience" from his encounter with Fat Buu and got nothing. The only thing that suggests Broly got a Zenkai is that he was badly injured, but if you go by them being badly injured, you might as well say anyone who gets badly injured after the frieza saga got a zenkai, and that doesn't work out too well.

Not really, I mean it only takes a 1.2x advantage (According to vegeta vs Dodoria) to dominate. Broly was tanking all of their attacks head on, but I really doubt he was anything more than 2x stronger than Goku, if not less.

Well I can't really argue here since I've never seen the OVA; Would it happen to take place after or durring the Cell games?

Well any zenkai is possible, but it doesn't make it true. There's really no indication he was any stronger in movie 10 at all.

I don't think canon Gohan and Gohan (Movie 10) are the same. Gohan from the Broly universe is clearly weaker than his canon self in movie 8, whether he's a MSSJ or not, seeing as he's weaker than Goku and is downplayed a lot. So it goes without saying that technically, he should be stronger in movie 10 compared to movie 8.

My feedback? Well I think "No sparks" is a greater proof than the way his hair is in certain states. As shown in movies 9 and 12, SSJ2s do have sparks in the movies, and I don't see much reason for that not to be the case in movie 10

I'm not suggesting Goku was an SSj to begin with. I'm saying when he first transformed he was SSj2. If you take a look at a particular part where Janemba is just about to shoot ki from the holes in his belly, it shows a close-up on Goku and you can see his hair has three strands, exactly the SSj2 hairstyle he exhibits in the manga. It's clear he's not an intended Super Saiyan 1 there. I also think Vegeta was SSj2 in Movie 12 too. If he would face such a monster in regular Super Saiyan after witnessing SSj3 Goku fail, then I wouldn't call him any sort of great tactician if he couldn't understand basic logic. He must have been SSj2 there. So no, that doesn't really put an end to my theory.

Actually, Zenkai's were not all but disregarded after the SSjs. What about Cell? He has Saiyan cells, and he powered up just like Gohan did after recieving a Zenkai from his near death experience. Broly was injured to the point of death no doubt, and he was healed. That means he did receive a massive Zenkai.

Vegeta was shown dominating Dodoria, but it was nowhere to the same degree as if he fighting Cui. A 1.2 difference should be enough to get the drop on your opponent anyway. Vegeta is just a way better fighter than Dodoria, and much more cool-headed. If you have someone in a position where they're unable to move [such as when Vegeta was holding Dodoria's arms backwards], then they won't be able to get out of it. It doesn't mean the person being held is inadequate otherwise.

The OVA was a movie made to be fixated on a what-if Cell Arc era setting.

The reason why Gohan is downplayed a lot in Movie 8 is because of Goku's presence. Therefore, he will be the hero. It doesn't mean Gohan was a necessarilly weaker Super Saiyan.

**Zer0** · 05-24-2008

The only thing I'm going to comment on is the zenkai issue. Broly recieved a zenkai. Its stated by Gohan that Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 8)=/=Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 10). The only explanation is a zenkai from the near-death experience of supposedly dying.

Evil Vegeta · 05-24-2008

I don't see how Vegeta wasn't a SSJ2 against Janemba to be honest. Vegeta attacked him without an aura, so he there is nothin that establishes him as a regular SSJ. When Vegeta fought Kid Buu, he lacked the SSJ2 aura completely, and was shown with a bit of electric when he was firing beams at him, which was around the aura for the same length of time as Vegito had it.

Gohan was a MSSJ in the first battle with Broly, but since he was only a bit stronger then Goku to begin with, it's easily overlooked in my opinion.

Broly · 05-24-2008

Yeah, I forgot to mention SSj2 Vegeta's lack of sparks when fighting Chibi Buu in the anime.

Cableguy15 · 05-26-2008

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I'm not suggesting Goku was an SSj to begin with. I'm saying when he first transformed he was SSj2. If you take a look at a particular part where Janemba is just about to shoot ki from the holes in his belly, it shows a close-up on Goku and you can see his hair has three strands, exactly the SSj2 hairstyle he exhibits in the manga. It's clear he's not an intended Super Saiyan 1 there. I also think Vegeta was SSj2 in Movie 12 too. If he would face such a monster in regular Super Saiyan after witnessing SSj3 Goku fail, then I wouldn't call him any sort of great tactician if he couldn't understand basic logic. He must have been SSj2 there. So no, that doesn't really put an end to my theory.

So you realize what you're suggesting? That despite the fact that sparks were shown durring Goku's SSJ3 transformation in movie 12, they somehow forget the sparks for "SSJ2" in the same movie? That doesn't sound right at all. Like I said, TOEI deserves more credit than they're getting here. Do you really think they would be so inconsistant in the same movie (Only a few minutes later in the movie might I add) to forget those sparks which are very common in SSJ2? Do the 3 hair strands matter? TOEI made SSJ2 Goku have 1 hair strand in the anime, you can google it yourself if you want to....

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Actually, Zenkai's were not all but disregarded after the SSjs. What about Cell? He has Saiyan cells, and he powered up just like Gohan did after recieving a Zenkai from his near death experience. Broly was injured to the point of death no doubt, and he was healed. That means he did receive a massive Zenkai.

He still lacked what most other Zenkais had in common, healing over a short period of time. Broly spent 7 years doing nothing except healing. Gohan sat on his butt for 7 years and he got weaker, why would it be any different for Broly?

And again, the examples I provided. Zenkais were not given where they were not needed. Broly doesn't need a zenkai to take on or dominate Gohan.

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Vegeta was shown dominating Dodoria, but it was nowhere to the same degree as if he fighting Cui. A 1.2 difference should be enough to get the drop on your opponent anyway. Vegeta is just a way better fighter than Dodoria, and much more cool-headed. If you have someone in a position where they're unable to move [such as when Vegeta was holding Dodoria's arms backwards], then they won't be able to get out of it. It doesn't mean the person being held is inadequate otherwise.

Ok then, Vegeta was only around 1.3x stronger than Cui. 24,000 for Vegeta, around 18,000 for Cui. It's still not the degree of advantage you're insisting Broly has. Really, 2x is the most I can see it being between Broly and Goku.

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The OVA was a movie made to be fixated on a what-if Cell Arc era setting.

It sounds to me like it takes place after the cell games since Trunks has a hair cut.

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The reason why Gohan is downplayed a lot in Movie 8 is because of Goku's presence. Therefore, he will be the hero. It doesn't mean Gohan was a necessarilty weaker Super Saiyan.

So you're suggesting Goku got stronger, not Gohan being weaker? I have to disagree, Gohan seemed an awful lot like he was on Piccolo's level and below Trunks and Vegeta's or atleast on Trunk's level meaning he was weakened, and while I can understand Goku getting a power up, Vegeta and Trunks are highly unlikely. Therefore it was Gohan who was downgraded, in my opinion to make Goku the hero as you said.

Also, I disagree with your reason for Goku telling Gohan to stay back. I'm 100% sure it was because he wasn't strong enough and lacked that potential he had in the Cell Games, not because "Goku cared for his son". Yes, Broly threatened him, yet he still let Gohan fight along his side later on when the situation became more desperate.

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Also, you can see Gohan's hair make two different appearances whilst in his super states. The first time he transforms we see him clearly with one hair-bang coming across his face, with a hairstyle very similar to SSj2. Second time he transforms, he has two hair-bangs coming across his face [when he was firing his Super Kamehameha],

Sorry to bring this old quote up Broly, but I just watched the fight and Gohan when he fought LSSJ broly and Gohan while doing Kamehameha both have 1 hair strand and look exactly the same to me.

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The only thing I'm going to comment on is the zenkai issue. Broly recieved a zenkai. Its stated by Gohan that Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 8)=/=Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 10). The only explanation is a zenkai from the near-death experience of supposedly dying.

Didn't he say something along the lines of "he's just as tough as before" or something like that in the Japanese version? In the dub all he says is that Broly was as talented as before, nothng about power.

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I don't see how Vegeta wasn't a SSJ2 against Janemba to be honest. Vegeta attacked him without an aura, so he there is nothin that establishes him as a regular SSJ. When Vegeta fought Kid Buu, he lacked the SSJ2 aura completely, and was shown with a bit of electric when he was firing beams at him, which was around the aura for the same length of time as Vegito had it.

MSSJs don't need to have an aura around them going by Goku and Gohan anyway.

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Gohan was a MSSJ in the first battle with Broly, but since he was only a bit stronger then Goku to begin with, it's easily overlooked in my opinion.

Not enough adds up for Gohan to be a MSSJ in that movie, but never the less, I'm still hypothetically going by the theory that they were just to keep the topic going at the momment.

Might I add... When Goku gets too hurt durring the movie he loses his SSJ form, that is not a quality of a MSSJ as we clearly see in the Cell games.

YouTube - Z fighters vs Brolly(Full fight no filler)Pt.2

Evil Vegeta · 05-26-2008

Well, during the Cell Games, Goku just got thrashed by the Cell Jr's with basic combos, but he was never hit by a chi beam at any point. Broly hit him with a fireball that took him into the little plain and exploded. Goku even stated that if it wasn't for Piccolo's senzu, he would've been finished. Goku never came close to that in the battle with Cell, he was just out of energy, which is somewhat different,

Devilz · 05-26-2008

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Originally Posted by CableGuy15

Didn't he say something along the lines of "he's just as tough as before"

He said that to SSJ Broly.

Cableguy15 · 05-26-2008

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Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Well, during the Cell Games, Goku just got thrashed by the Cell Jr's with basic combos, but he was never hit by a chi beam at any point. Broly hit him with a fireball that took him into the little plain and exploded. Goku even stated that if it wasn't for Piccolo's senzu, he would've been finished. Goku never came close to that in the battle with Cell, he was just out of energy, which is somewhat different,

Well I don't see what being hit by a ki beam has to do with Goku losing his SSJ form or not. Certainly Goku wasn't on such a bad level of damage after the thrashing he got durring the Cell Games, but he still needed a senzu in that case as well. And it really didn't seem like Goku was about to die before that Senzu (Gohan maybe, which is why I didn't bring him up), he could have been refering to the fact that he lost a lot of power while fighting Broly.

Devilz: Yes I know... But I happen to recall a very, very similar case to this one in the canon DBZ with Dabura. Goku said Dabura was as strong as Cell. Goku obviously knew how strong Super Perfect Cell was (Close to SSJ2), yet he made that statement and it's widely accepted that Dabura is far weaker than Super Perfect cell... It can easily be the same case here.

Evil Vegeta · 05-26-2008

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Originally Posted by Cableguy15

Well I don't see what being hit by a ki beam has to do with Goku losing his SSJ form or not. Certainly Goku wasn't on such a bad level of damage after the thrashing he got durring the Cell Games, but he still needed a senzu in that case as well. And it really didn't seem like Goku was about to die before that Senzu (Gohan maybe, which is why I didn't bring him up), he could have been refering to the fact that he lost a lot of power while fighting Broly.

See, the difference is that Goku used up nearly all of his energy fighting against Cell, that's why he needed the senzu. Goku being hit with the chi beam from Broly nearly finished him, which is why I'm sayin it has nothin to do with him not being a MSSJ just because he's in base form. Since he told Piccolo he was nearly finished, we have to believe that's how damaged he was, and since we never see Goku get damaged to that extent, it can't be used to tell if he was a MSSJ or not.

I'm pretty sure if they're damaged extremely bad, they'll revert, since it's not a forever effect in my opinion.

Dupe of USSJed · 05-26-2008

Its hilarious that people still post in this thread, long after Red Saiyan has dissapeared into the horizon

SRP76 · 05-26-2008

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Originally Posted by Zer0

The only thing I'm going to comment on is the zenkai issue. Broly recieved a zenkai. Its stated by Gohan that Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 8)=/=Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 10). The only explanation is a zenkai from the near-death experience of supposedly dying.

No, BASE Gohan in Movie 10 states that Broly seems as much a monster as SUPER SAIYAN Gohan faced in Movie 8. That doesn't mean that Broly's stronger at all. It just means the difference between Super Saiyan Broly and base Gohan in Movie 10 is as large as the gap between "Legendary" Super Saiyan Broly and Super Saiyan Gohan was in Movie 8.

And even that is proven false, because base Gohan fights Broly pretty evenly, whereas he was totally dominated in Movie 8.

05-23-2008	#32 (permalink)
SSJ4 Vegito (25) Kami of Earth Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,221 Rep Power: 114	Re: brolly vs goku ssj4 ,vegeta ssj2 The OVA movie takes place shortly after Movie 8, Gohan can't go SSJ2 and Trunks has short hair. So it can't take place After or during the Cell Games.

05-24-2008	#34 (permalink)
Zer0 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hn, None of your business Posts: 10,113 Blog Entries: 4 Rep Power: 133	Re: brolly vs goku ssj4 ,vegeta ssj2 The only thing I'm going to comment on is the zenkai issue. Broly recieved a zenkai. Its stated by Gohan that Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 8)=/=Super Saiyan Broly (Movie 10). The only explanation is a zenkai from the near-death experience of supposedly dying. __________________ Want a colored username? Then check out the Weekly Naruto & Bleach Caption Contests.

05-24-2008	#36 (permalink)
Broly The Desolate One Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: You think I give a shit about where you think I stay? Posts: 7,538 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 31	Re: brolly vs goku ssj4 ,vegeta ssj2 Yeah, I forgot to mention SSj2 Vegeta's lack of sparks when fighting Chibi Buu in the anime. __________________ $E:\Avatars\I am [not] God.JPG$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8 Silence is golden, ducktape is silver, a bullet is bronze.

05-26-2008	#42 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,119 Rep Power: 176	Re: brolly vs goku ssj4 ,vegeta ssj2 Its hilarious that people still post in this thread, long after Red Saiyan has dissapeared into the horizon