SSJ2 Vegito (Buu Saga) vs. SSJ4 Goku (Surpassed Limits) - Page 10

apocalypse1280 · 05-08-2008

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Originally Posted by Majuub

That isn't an argument at all. Like I said in my last post, proportions always work the same way no matter how high are the numbers. It's like saying 2x=4 but 2x1,000 doesn't equal 2,000 because 1,000 is a high number and it won't double. You're not even debating, where is your argument, I want to see it.

I think it's unreasonable because it's like comparing children to adults in terms of power. It just doesn't make any sense in my opinion, thats all.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

A character can exceed his 100%. I never saw that happened once. How can someone use more than what he is truly capable of. You do know that doesn't make any sens do you? You're saying anyone can exceed the very limits of his body when he is ''pushed'' to the limits?? That's a contradction right there, you said pushed to the limits, that means he reached the limits, the limits are 100%. That's not a good thing to contradict yourself in a debate man. Think about your sentence for at least 1 second. It's like saying, Goku is as strong as Gohan but he is stronger. You said yourself, he reached his limits and now you say he exceed them. Does he reach his limits or does he surpasses them? That's totally different.

Limits =100%

Pushed to the limits = more than 100%

It's the exact same thing. At the very least you could have said they're not using their full potential at full power because it's almost impossible to reach our limits at will but saying using your limits and being pushed to the limits doesn't mean using the same amount of energy is just a contradiction. I believe you don't understand to well. Being pushed to the limits=Being pushed to 100% only the words are different but they have the exact same meaning. I didn't say Gogeta held back, I said he didn't use his full power, there is an enormous difference. It's like when you're angry at someone, you'll hit him because you're mad and you'll try to hurt him without holding back, it doesn't mean you gave it all.

You're actually right on this one..... because I worded it wrong. I know that if Vegeta was asked to just do a Final Flash for no reason, with all his power, it would be nowhere near as strong if he were in a life and death battle and was pushed to his limit. I don't see that being very hard to understand. Everyone gets stronger when their adrenaline is pumping, especially if you fear for your life. As far as no one ever exceeding 100%, isn't that what happens when Goku first goes SSJ? I mean by your logic Goku never fought at 100% until he was a SSJ4. People can always go beyond their limits. Like lifting weights, you can max out at 200 pounds, a few years later be up to 600 pounds. Essentially you erase your previous 100% max and replace it with a higher one. It's a normal and common occurrence in most sports.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

That's not what I mean. You said Gogeta was using his full power meaning he was using 100% of his power, that means it was the most he could do with that attack and yet Yi Xing Long didn't die?? That just means:

Yi Xing Long>100% Gogeta

Unless Yi Xing Long has some ridiculous regenerative abilities like Chibi Buu he shouldn't have survived that attack. Even Buu was scared to die against Gohan and Goku who was about even with Chibi Buu was strong enough to kill him at full power and now you're telling me Gogeta who is probably many times stronger than Yi Xing Long can't do the same?

What I'm saying is exactly what happend. Gogeta says "I'll send you to the Next World with this blast". Then afterwards when Shenron was still alive, he says, "You're a persistent one, huh?". Then he says "But no matter how much you struggle, it's no use!" So yes, Shenron resisted. He survived the blast. My whole thing, which is where we differ, is that he would have said he didn't use his full power, or Shenron would have mentioned it, or either Goku or Vegeta would have mentioned it when the fusion ended and they split, but no one even hints at it. I also think Gogeta would have said something about putting more power into the next one, which he didn't do either. I tried explaining full power versus being pushed to ones limits and beyond, but whatever. We just see this differently, except I'm basing my opinions on stated facts.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Owned? Do you know not everyone in the universe is forced to give their energy with the Genki-Dama? They have to raise their hand and it'll drain them. The Genki-Dama takes energy from plants and every life form, do you seriously think they'll all listen to Goku? It's like when you're in a classroom and the teacher says ''Everyone, listen'' usually there is a couple of students who don't even listen. It's like with Chibi Buu when he was doing the Genki-Dama, Vegeta told the people of the earth to give their energy and almost no gave did it. I'm not saying almost no one did it in that situation, I'm saying not everyone gave it.

I don't see the point of debating that though. The Genki-Dama was way too much for Yi Xing Long, aside from SSJ4 Gogeta I don't think anybody could have survived that, so this is rather pointless to discuss that. Even if that Genki-Dama kills SSJ3 Vegeto, it doesn't mean he isn't stronger than Yi Xing Long, it just means he isn't strong enough to resisit that attack.

Bringing up Vegeta asking the people of Earth, versus Goku asking the people throughout the universe is another ridiculous comparison. You saying "not everyone gave it" is again your opinion versus a stated fact. They even showed bad guys in jail giving their energy. You're right in the sense it wasn't forced, but they absolutely gave it willingly. That's what I believe based on a stated fact, on what was shown and on what was said. I never said anything about the Spirit Bomb killing SSJ3 Vegito, just for the record. No matter what, power from everyone in the universe is gonna be stronger then SSJ4 Gogeta. That shouldn't be hard to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

I never said he did anything to him, I said it was enough to hold him back a little. It's obvious the Kikoho is a different kind of attack since I severly doubt he would have successfully held back Buu with a Ki blast such as the kamehameha or anything like it. When Buu had fired an attack powerful enough to kill Chou Gohan, Tienshinhan did his Kikoho on that attack and it destroyed the Ki blast. How come was Tienshinhan able to repel something strong enough to kill Chou Gohan when he is much weaker than Shin Buu. That's why I say the Kikoho works differently, here is what it should have looked like if it was a normal attack.

Even if it's the non canon section, it doesn't mean we can't use canon basis. GT is just following DBZ(Even if it breaks some rules) but saying we can't use canon evidence in a discussion is just a way for you to not counter my arguments. It would be too easy to just say using canon facts doesn't work. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I never said you couldn't use your so called "canon evidence" in this discussion. I just think it's funny that you wanna bring it up and claim it now after all this time. Whatever makes you happy man. Also, my point was that Tien's blast didn't do anything to Super Buu, so I'm wondering how it held him back? You ask how Tien's Tri-Beam was able to destroy Super Buu's ki blast? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say because it was stronger.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

We are both stating our opinions, that's what a debate is all about. The only difference is the fact you talk without backing anything up while I use canon basis and evidence from previous episodes as a back up. You just talk and insult me. Seriously, how old are you? 12? You could get banned for that but I didn't report you nor anything, now just stop insulting me.

I'm not gonna lie, I was pretty drunk when I wrote that response last night, sorry I hurt your feelings and made you cry. The difference between our arguments, is that you base yours on your own opinions and make ridiculous comparisons. On the other hand, I quote the anime, use stated facts and actual events that happened during the actual fight to back up what I believe, not events that happened in previous fights that are irrelevant. Arguing lame opinions against stated facts and actual events is more immature then getting frustrated when you're drunk.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

You still didn't say why Yi Xing Long survived the power of 100% Gogeta =/

Why are you ignoring that fact?

Are you serious? He survived because he was strong enough to do so. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

For me it's the same thing as in DBZ, the Genki-Dama powered by the earth wasn't more powerful than SSJ Vegeto.

Except you're talking about the whole world versus the whole universe. Another lame and ridiculous comparison. Seriously man, just give it up.

**Majuub** · 05-09-2008

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I think it's unreasonable because it's like comparing children to adults in terms of power. It just doesn't make any sense in my opinion, thats all.

That's not my point, Ill try to make you understand what I mean. Let's use cars as an exemple(Yes, it sounds weird) Let's say there is car A and B, car B is 2x faster than car A. If car A travels 2km car B will travel 4km, if car A travels 2,000,000km, car B will travel 4,000,000km. It's not because the numbers are bigger that the difference doesn't remain the same. It's basic maths. Let's say I have a power of 10 and you have a power of 20, it doesn't seem we have too much difference in terms of power since we could say I'm only 10 units stronger than you, but in fact I am 2x stronger. The difference between 1 and 2 is the same difference between 1,000 and 2,000 or 10,000 or 20,000. If we use multiplications rather than addition it sounds clearer. Even there, I can use stronger characters if you like and nothing changes. Goku was dead even with Chibi Buu, both him and Vegeta said at 100% he was strong enough to kill him, their difference in terms of power wasn't great at all, in fact maybe there wasn't any but still a 100% Goku was enough to wipe him out. You see, Goku wouldn't have acted like Vegeta and forced an ultimate attack because he was desperate to win, he would have just blasted will all he has and Chibi Buu would have died. Keep in mind, we're talking about Buu, the being with the most ridiculous regenerative abilities in the whole Dragon Ball universe. Yi Xing Long doesn't posess such abilities and the difference in power between him and Gogeta was much greater than the difference between Goku and Chibi Buu. Going by that logic, it would have been completely impossible for him to survive the full power of Gogeta's most powerful attack.

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You're actually right on this one..... because I worded it wrong. I know that if Vegeta was asked to just do a Final Flash for no reason, with all his power, it would be nowhere near as strong if he were in a life and death battle and was pushed to his limit. I don't see that being very hard to understand. Everyone gets stronger when their adrenaline is pumping, especially if you fear for your life. As far as no one ever exceeding 100%, isn't that what happens when Goku first goes SSJ? I mean by your logic Goku never fought at 100% until he was a SSJ4. People can always go beyond their limits. Like lifting weights, you can max out at 200 pounds, a few years later be up to 600 pounds. Essentially you erase your previous 100% max and replace it with a higher one. It's a normal and common occurrence in most sports.

Well, there is a little difference. You see, base Goku has the potential of SSJ3 Goku witihin him, only he isn't strong enough to go that far yet. He has to train his body a lot in order to reach that kind of power. The same goes for an olympic champion, I believe these guys can run at about 40km/h, if you let an enormous dog chase after them while they're kids and aren't trained yet, the dog will catch them and bite them, even if they have a great potential there are still not there. That's what we call push back the limits. At first Goku's full power was at 416 and he couldn't exceed that even if anyone pushed him to do so no matter what Goku does he can't exceed this. He has to train in order to put his base power higher and to push his limits further. It's like with Gohan, even if he had the latent potential within him it had to be unlocked, even if Gohan wanted with all his heart or was about to die he couldn't reach that power because his limits are set, he has to find a way to push them further.

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What I'm saying is exactly what happend. Gogeta says "I'll send you to the Next World with this blast". Then afterwards when Shenron was still alive, he says, "You're a persistent one, huh?". Then he says "But no matter how much you struggle, it's no use!" So yes, Shenron resisted. He survived the blast. My whole thing, which is where we differ, is that he would have said he didn't use his full power, or Shenron would have mentioned it, or either Goku or Vegeta would have mentioned it when the fusion ended and they split, but no one even hints at it. I also think Gogeta would have said something about putting more power into the next one, which he didn't do either. I tried explaining full power versus being pushed to ones limits and beyond, but whatever. We just see this differently, except I'm basing my opinions on stated facts.

In fact, I would say the opposite. When they don't use their full power they don't say it. I see them bragging about using full power a lot of time. Like with Frieza saying he is at 50% and then at 100%. Vegeta saying Goku at full power was strong enough to obliterate Chibi Buu. Piccolo saying Shin Buu will use his full power against Gotenks now he that he is angry. There are many more other occasions when they say they use their full power. You know why they say it when they use it? It's because it doesn't happen often, when something rarely occurs it's obvious you're going to say it's happening. Gogeta didn't say nothing special because it was nothing special. It's not like characters use their full power on any given occasion, they'll use it as a last resort or when they're pissed off. For me, Gogeta should have said he used his full power not the opposite. Because chances are more on the side he wasn't using his full power than they were on the side he was using his full power.

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Bringing up Vegeta asking the people of Earth, versus Goku asking the people throughout the universe is another ridiculous comparison. You saying "not everyone gave it" is again your opinion versus a stated fact. They even showed bad guys in jail giving their energy. You're right in the sense it wasn't forced, but they absolutely gave it willingly. That's what I believe based on a stated fact, on what was shown and on what was said. I never said anything about the Spirit Bomb killing SSJ3 Vegito, just for the record. No matter what, power from everyone in the universe is gonna be stronger then SSJ4 Gogeta. That shouldn't be hard to comprehend.

Well, in the book it was quite the opposite. It was shown not everyone gave their energy when Vegeta asked for it. Anyways, that's beside the point. It's rather irrelevant. If that blast was so much powerful it means no one could have resisted it, so it's rather pointless to discuss that.

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I never said you couldn't use your so called "canon evidence" in this discussion. I just think it's funny that you wanna bring it up and claim it now after all this time. Whatever makes you happy man. Also, my point was that Tien's blast didn't do anything to Super Buu, so I'm wondering how it held him back? You ask how Tien's Tri-Beam was able to destroy Super Buu's ki blast? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say because it was stronger.

I'll correct myself, it held back Buu's attack, in fact it destroyed it. Your wild guess is lol. No further comment.

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I'm not gonna lie, I was pretty drunk when I wrote that response last night, sorry I hurt your feelings and made you cry. The difference between our arguments, is that you base yours on your own opinions and make ridiculous comparisons. On the other hand, I quote the anime, use stated facts and actual events that happened during the actual fight to back up what I believe, not events that happened in previous fights that are irrelevant. Arguing lame opinions against stated facts and actual events is more immature then getting frustrated when you're drunk.

Lol, you were drunk. It doesn't mind, it didn't hurt me nor anything, it wasn't cool to be insulted and all that, but I'm cool with that. I'm stating my opinions because we debate. If all these facts were stated we wouldn't be arguing. It was never stated Gogeta used his full power, it was never stated he didn't, it was never stated everyone gave their energy, it was not stated not everyone gave their energy. Almost nothing is stated, you quote and say what you think the statement means and we don't agree over that.

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Are you serious? He survived because he was strong enough to do so. It's that simple.

No one ever did that in DB/Z/GT and yet Yi Xing Long breaks this just because you wan it??

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Except you're talking about the whole world versus the whole universe. Another lame and ridiculous comparison. Seriously man, just give it up.

Vegeto's power was big enough to be compared to the whole world's, I think it was even stronger, SSJ4 Gogeta's power is also comparable to the power of the whole universe. Unless you completely disagree with that...

apocalypse1280 · 05-09-2008

I'm gonna start by saying I honestly hate repeating myself over and over(not saying you like to), but I'm gonna answer these as best I can, because my head is starting to hurt.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

That's not my point, Ill try to make you understand what I mean. Let's use cars as an exemple(Yes, it sounds weird) Let's say there is car A and B, car B is 2x faster than car A. If car A travels 2km car B will travel 4km, if car A travels 2,000,000km, car B will travel 4,000,000km. It's not because the numbers are bigger that the difference doesn't remain the same. It's basic maths. Let's say I have a power of 10 and you have a power of 20, it doesn't seem we have too much difference in terms of power since we could say I'm only 10 units stronger than you, but in fact I am 2x stronger. The difference between 1 and 2 is the same difference between 1,000 and 2,000 or 10,000 or 20,000. If we use multiplications rather than addition it sounds clearer. Even there, I can use stronger characters if you like and nothing changes. Goku was dead even with Chibi Buu, both him and Vegeta said at 100% he was strong enough to kill him, their difference in terms of power wasn't great at all, in fact maybe there wasn't any but still a 100% Goku was enough to wipe him out. You see, Goku wouldn't have acted like Vegeta and forced an ultimate attack because he was desperate to win, he would have just blasted will all he has and Chibi Buu would have died. Keep in mind, we're talking about Buu, the being with the most ridiculous regenerative abilities in the whole Dragon Ball universe. Yi Xing Long doesn't posess such abilities and the difference in power between him and Gogeta was much greater than the difference between Goku and Chibi Buu. Going by that logic, it would have been completely impossible for him to survive the full power of Gogeta's most powerful attack.

Except he does have regeneration powers that he got from Rage Shenron. I won't say as ridiculous, but with someone as strong as Omega, they'd be border line at least. If you watch it, that's what happens after Gogeta blasts him with the Big Bang Kamehameha, he reforms himself.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Well, there is a little difference. You see, base Goku has the potential of SSJ3 Goku witihin him, only he isn't strong enough to go that far yet. He has to train his body a lot in order to reach that kind of power. The same goes for an olympic champion, I believe these guys can run at about 40km/h, if you let an enormous dog chase after them while they're kids and aren't trained yet, the dog will catch them and bite them, even if they have a great potential there are still not there. That's what we call push back the limits. At first Goku's full power was at 416 and he couldn't exceed that even if anyone pushed him to do so no matter what Goku does he can't exceed this. He has to train in order to put his base power higher and to push his limits further. It's like with Gohan, even if he had the latent potential within him it had to be unlocked, even if Gohan wanted with all his heart or was about to die he couldn't reach that power because his limits are set, he has to find a way to push them further.

Only difference is I wasn't talking about a child. People get pushed to their limits and beyond all the time. Training in order to further ones limits is fine and dandy, but we're talking about while in a fight. You're not gonna ask your opponent to stop so you can train. Goku would not have gone SSJ had he not been pushed beyond his limits. Did his traning help, yes. But would he have been able to just stand there and go SSJ, no. Frieza pushed him.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

In fact, I would say the opposite. When they don't use their full power they don't say it. I see them bragging about using full power a lot of time. Like with Frieza saying he is at 50% and then at 100%. Vegeta saying Goku at full power was strong enough to obliterate Chibi Buu. Piccolo saying Shin Buu will use his full power against Gotenks now he that he is angry. There are many more other occasions when they say they use their full power. You know why they say it when they use it? It's because it doesn't happen often, when something rarely occurs it's obvious you're going to say it's happening. Gogeta didn't say nothing special because it was nothing special. It's not like characters use their full power on any given occasion, they'll use it as a last resort or when they're pissed off. For me, Gogeta should have said he used his full power not the opposite. Because chances are more on the side he wasn't using his full power than they were on the side he was using his full power.

We just totally disagree on this. It's gonna keep going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Well, in the book it was quite the opposite. It was shown not everyone gave their energy when Vegeta asked for it. Anyways, that's beside the point. It's rather irrelevant. If that blast was so much powerful it means no one could have resisted it, so it's rather pointless to discuss that.

I was talking about Goku, not Vegeta.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

I'll correct myself, it held back Buu's attack, in fact it destroyed it. Your wild guess is lol. No further comment.

If my guess is lol, then what do you think?

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Lol, you were drunk. It doesn't mind, it didn't hurt me nor anything, it wasn't cool to be insulted and all that, but I'm cool with that. I'm stating my opinions because we debate. If all these facts were stated we wouldn't be arguing. It was never stated Gogeta used his full power, it was never stated he didn't, it was never stated everyone gave their energy, it was not stated not everyone gave their energy. Almost nothing is stated, you quote and say what you think the statement means and we don't agree over that.

The Gogeta part is true. It was never stated he did or didn't use full power. We just disagree on that. But as far as Goku, I'm only gonna say it one more time. Goku says, and I quote, "That's why now, I need to gather Genki from throughout the universe!" Now let's do some word play here. You once tried to use this quote against me. Here is the meaning of the word 'throughout':

through·out

1.in or to every part of; everywhere in: They searched throughout the house. 2.from the beginning to the end of:

Now according to you, they played a game of pick and choose. You said they only gathered energy from the planets they had visited, which is wrong anyway cause those planets were only in their galaxy. King Kai calls on the other Kai's to let all the people in their different quadrants of the universe(not galaxy) hear Goku's plea. Now according to the definition, that would be "everywhere" or "every part of", meaning every planet, which in turn would mean every life form. Now having said that, as I said before they even showed people in jail giving their energy toward Goku. It's all stated and shown in every aspect you can think of. And that's where you argue your opinion versus fact. On top of that as I said before, Goku also says "People of the universe! Share your Genki with me". I think that in and of itself says it all.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

No one ever did that in DB/Z/GT and yet Yi Xing Long breaks this just because you wan it??

Lol, not just because I want it, but because he's strong enough to.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Vegeto's power was big enough to be compared to the whole world's, I think it was even stronger, SSJ4 Gogeta's power is also comparable to the power of the whole universe. Unless you completely disagree with that...

And I absolutely, wholeheartedly, 100% disagree with that preposterous correlation. It's not even feasible.

**Majuub** · 05-09-2008

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Except he does have regeneration powers that he got from Rage Shenron. I won't say as ridiculous, but with someone as strong as Omega, they'd be border line at least. If you watch it, that's what happens after Gogeta blasts him with the Big Bang Kamehameha, he reforms himself.

Not only must he have regenerative abilities such as Chibi Buu but he would have to be much stronger. We agree over the fact Chibi Buu is about even with SSJ3 Goku. We agree Goku was strong enough to wipe him out. We agree the difference of power between Gogeta and Yi Xing Long was greater than the difference between Goku and Chibi Buu. We also agree Yi Xing Long doesn't posess regenerative abilites such as Chibi Buu's. With all that, I don't see why he would survive a full power attack. There could be only 2 reasons.

1. Gogeta didn't use his full power.

2. He is much stronger than what he showed

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Only difference is I wasn't talking about a child. People get pushed to their limits and beyond all the time. Training in order to further ones limits is fine and dandy, but we're talking about while in a fight. You're not gonna ask your opponent to stop so you can train. Goku would not have gone SSJ had he not been pushed beyond his limits. Did his traning help, yes. But would he have been able to just stand there and go SSJ, no. Frieza pushed him.

The SSJ situation was rather different. Goku got this power boost because of the rage, the same for Gohan. It's because of their emotions. Also, Goku going transformations are something special. We all agree base Goku can't reach the same power as SSJ Goku simply because he is not strong enough. Now, SSJ multiplies the power about 50x. Not only does he exceed the limits but the transformations just puts Goku on another level. Keep in mind, when he reached SSJ for the first time, his power at base didn't grow at all, it stayed the same, only the transformation made him stronger. We can't really say he exceeded his limits since his limits at base were still the same.

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If my guess is lol, then what do you think?

I think your guess is lol. Tienshinhan destroyed Buu's attack with the Kikoho, that attack was meant to kill a weakened Chou Gohan who is still probably more than 100x stronger than Tienshinhan. If Tienshinhan's blast was more powerful than an attack strong enough to kill Chou Gohan, it means Tienshinhan reached SSJ3 like power which I severly doubt is true.

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The Gogeta part is true. It was never stated he did or didn't use full power. We just disagree on that. But as far as Goku, I'm only gonna say it one more time. Goku says, and I quote, "That's why now, I need to gather Genki from throughout the universe!" Now let's do some word play here. You once tried to use this quote against me. Here is the meaning of the word 'throughout':

through·out

1.in or to every part of; everywhere in: They searched throughout the house. 2.from the beginning to the end of:

Now according to you, they played a game of pick and choose. You said they only gathered energy from the planets they had visited, which is wrong anyway cause those planets were only in their galaxy. King Kai calls on the other Kai's to let all the people in their different quadrants of the universe(not galaxy) hear Goku's plea. Now according to the definition, that would be "everywhere" or "every part of", meaning every planet, which in turn would mean every life form. Now having said that, as I said before they even showed people in jail giving their energy toward Goku. It's all stated and shown in every aspect you can think of. And that's where you argue your opinion versus fact. On top of that as I said before, Goku also says "People of the universe! Share your Genki with me". I think that in and of itself says it all.

We don't have to argue over that as it's irrelevant. Even if that Genki-Dama was 100x stronger than Yi Xing Long, it brings nothing to the discussion. That Genki-Dama was extremely powerful, it could have been even stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta who is probably stronger than SSJ2 Vegeto by a good margain. It just proves any character is too weak to survive that amount of power. It doesn't prove SSJ2 Vegeto>Yi Xing Long, nor the opposite.

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Lol, not just because I want it, but because he's strong enough to.

Honestly, did it ever happen once a character much weaker than the other survive the a full power attack from the stronger character? If it never happened once you can't just say it happens now without anything to back it up. I don't see any reason for Yi Xing Long to be able to resist that kind of power.

1. He hasn't extreme regenerative abilities.

2. Gogeta was much stronger than him.

3. It never ever happened a characer much weaker survived the full power of a character much stronger.

You remember when Vegeto was fighting Shin Buu(Gohan absorbed)? Shin Buu knew he was going to die by the hands of Vegeto, he was scared and desperate, he absorbed him. Now, Buu is the vilain with the best regeneration technics in the whole DB universe and yet he was scared because Vegeto was going to kill him. Judging by the fight I doubt Vegeto would have used even 50% of his power to erase him, the fight was extremely one sided, just like the fight was one sided between Gogeta and Yi Xing Long. Shin Buu has much better regenerative abilites than Yi Xing Long and he was going to get killed by Vegeto and he knew it, but Gogeta didn't kill a being without ridiculous regenerative abilities?? You could at least try and explain why instead of just saying ''He is strong enough'' that's not an argument, that's a baseless assumption.

I can state you times where two opponents were about even and the one a little stronger killed the other who was a little weaker or at least had the power to do so. I will also state moments where stronger characters killed weaker characters but the gap wasn't as big as the one between Gogeta and Yi Xing Long

Piccolo killed Raditz who was stronger(Yes, it was a blast through the heart)

Goku had enough power to kill Nappa

SSJ Goku had enough power to kill Frieza

SSJ2 Gohan had enough power to finish Cell without his final blast

SSJ3 Goku had enough power to kill Chibi Buu

Chou Gohan had enough power to kill Shin Buu

SSJ3 Gotenks had enough power to kill Shin Buu

Vegeto had enough power to kill Shin Buu

Vegeta had enough power to kill Semi-perfect Cell

???Gogeta has not enough power to kill Yi Xing Long with one fully powered blast???

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And I absolutely, wholeheartedly, 100% disagree with that preposterous correlation. It's not even feasible.

Doesn't matter, I think the power of SSJ4 Gogeta is comparable to the power of the whole DB universe. Obviously if Gogeta did an attack at full power, it would destroy any being in one shot.

apocalypse1280 · 05-09-2008

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Not only must he have regenerative abilities such as Chibi Buu but he would have to be much stronger. We agree over the fact Chibi Buu is about even with SSJ3 Goku. We agree Goku was strong enough to wipe him out. We agree the difference of power between Gogeta and Yi Xing Long was greater than the difference between Goku and Chibi Buu. We also agree Yi Xing Long doesn't posess regenerative abilites such as Chibi Buu's. With all that, I don't see why he would survive a full power attack. There could be only 2 reasons.

1. Gogeta didn't use his full power.

2. He is much stronger than what he showed

Like I said, we just disagree on this.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

The SSJ situation was rather different. Goku got this power boost because of the rage, the same for Gohan. It's because of their emotions. Also, Goku going transformations are something special. We all agree base Goku can't reach the same power as SSJ Goku simply because he is not strong enough. Now, SSJ multiplies the power about 50x. Not only does he exceed the limits but the transformations just puts Goku on another level. Keep in mind, when he reached SSJ for the first time, his power at base didn't grow at all, it stayed the same, only the transformation made him stronger. We can't really say he exceeded his limits since his limits at base were still the same.

Frieza still pushed Goku beyond his limits, no matter how you try to word it.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

I think your guess is lol. Tienshinhan destroyed Buu's attack with the Kikoho, that attack was meant to kill a weakened Chou Gohan who is still probably more than 100x stronger than Tienshinhan. If Tienshinhan's blast was more powerful than an attack strong enough to kill Chou Gohan, it means Tienshinhan reached SSJ3 like power which I severly doubt is true.

That's another crazy comparison. If Tien's Tri-Beam wasn't stronger then Buu's ki blast, then why did it destroy it? Not only that but Tien stopped 2nd form Cell dead in his tracks with that move, and was basically whopping his ass for a minute. So are you saying that makes Tien stronger then Androids 16, 17, 18 and first form Cell? Trunks deflected one of Omega Shenrons attacks that was meant to kill Vegeta..... with his hand. Doesn't mean he was stronger.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

We don't have to argue over that as it's irrelevant. Even if that Genki-Dama was 100x stronger than Yi Xing Long, it brings nothing to the discussion. That Genki-Dama was extremely powerful, it could have been even stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta who is probably stronger than SSJ2 Vegeto by a good margain. It just proves any character is too weak to survive that amount of power. It doesn't prove SSJ2 Vegeto>Yi Xing Long, nor the opposite.

SSJ4 Gogeta is "probably" stronger then SSJ2 Vegito by a good margin?

All righty then. I didn't bring up the universal spirit bomb to compare SSJ2 Vegito and Omega Shenron.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Honestly, did it ever happen once a character much weaker than the other survive the a full power attack from the stronger character? If it never happened once you can't just say it happens now without anything to back it up. I don't see any reason for Yi Xing Long to be able to resist that kind of power.

Well I wanna say Goku and Frieza, but Frieza wasn't that much weaker then Goku. Even so, saying it never happened before sounds good, but it's weak. You seem to not understand that we're talking about the 2 strongest characters in the DB universe. I know that doesn't matter to suit your opinion, but it most definitely suits what happened and what was said. I don't know why it's so hard for you to realize that he was stronger then they thought. They were shocked that Omega Shenron survived that blast. And you're right, it is either one of two things, and I agree that Shenron was more powerful then they thought.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Doesn't matter, I think the power of SSJ4 Gogeta is comparable to the power of the whole DB universe.

Priceless man, just priceless.

**Majuub** · 05-09-2008

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Like I said, we just disagree on this.

Well, can I just hear your explanation?

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Frieza still pushed Goku beyond his limits, no matter how you try to word it.

I didn't say he didn't, I say the SSJ was a different situation. You're talking like they could do that everyday but they can't. It's the only situation where they can exceed their limits, not the lmits of their base from because they don't get stronger at base. SSJ just drastically multiplies one's power, it's not like they anyone can exceed their limits.

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That's another crazy comparison. If Tien's Tri-Beam wasn't stronger then Buu's ki blast, then why did it destroy it? Not only that but Tien stopped 2nd form Cell dead in his tracks with that move, and was basically whopping his ass for a minute. So are you saying that makes Tien stronger then Androids 16, 17, 18 and first form Cell? Trunks deflected one of Omega Shenrons attacks that was meant to kill Vegeta..... with his hand. Doesn't mean he was stronger.

You saw what happenend when Tienshinhan was doing the Kikhoho on Cell? After a coupe of times he fell unconscious because he hadn't more energy left. Even if by that time, hand to hand he was much weaker tha Cell the attack still held Cell back for some time. It doesn't mean Tienshinhan is anywhere near Cell in terms of power. This attack just works differently because as you can see, it isn't a normal Ki attack like the Kamehameha or the Masenko, if Goku fires a Kamehameha on a blast much stronger than his, his kamehameha will just be destroyed by the blast. Tien doesn't even fire a blast like the others, he completely uses all his energy to do the Kikoho. Tienshinhan never got close to SSJ like power, his Kikoho deflecting Buu's attack was something totally different. I doubt any other attack could have the same effect. Honestly, aside from Tienshinhan, did you see anyone do that?

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SSJ4 Gogeta is "probably" stronger then SSJ2 Vegito by a good margin?

All righty then. I didn't bring up the universal spirit bomb to compare SSJ2 Vegito and Omega Shenron.

You don't get it. That won't reveal anything. If you say ''It took a universal Genki-Dama to destroy Yi Xing Long'' and use that to compare him to Vegeto, it won't bring anything since neither of them would have survive the bomb. I'll give you an exemple, let's say there was a nuclear explosion, man A died from it and man B wasn't touched by it. Now you say, man A was probably stronger than man B because it took a nuclear explosion to kill him. That doesn't prove nothing since they would both die easily by the explosion. Same for Vegeto and Yi Xing Long, they would both die without resisting much, that's not a way to compare them.

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Well I wanna say Goku and Frieza, but Frieza wasn't that much weaker then Goku. Even so, saying it never happened before sounds good, but it's weak. You seem to not understand that we're talking about the 2 strongest characters in the DB universe. I know that doesn't matter to suit your opinion, but it most definitely suits what happened and what was said. I don't know why it's so hard for you to realize that he was stronger then they thought. They were shocked that Omega Shenron survived that blast. And you're right, it is either one of two things, and I agree that Shenron was more powerful then they thought.

That's not what I mean. I took exemple from the beginning to the end of DBZ. I don't see how that can be weak. From the beginning to the end that rule never changed. Even for Vegeto and Shin Buu who were the two strongest characters in DBZ, that same rule still applies. It won't change just because you want it to change. Yi Xing Long showed his full power against Gogeta, if he was more powerful than what they thought he would have at least put up some kind of threat against Gogeta but he didn't. If Gogeta's full power wasn't powerful enough to destroy him, it means Yi Xing Long has enough power to at least damage Gogeta. Just like Cell had enough to damage Gohan, just like Frieza had enough to damage Goku etc. Yi Xing Long hadn't that kind of power, if it's your last argument, sorry but that isn't an argument. It just means Gogeta never used his full power. You can't just say he was stronger than what they thought since he never showed he had some kind of power that could put up a resistence to Gogeta. It's not because they are the two strongest characters everything will change, from the beginning to the end of DBZ nothing changed, even throughout GT that rule still applied. If it has somehow change you must give an explanation, otherwise it's an opinion with nothing to back it up.

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Priceless man, just priceless.

I know, I place SSJ4 Gogeta pretty high but for me, the whole DB universe is populated by weaklings, so 1,000,000,000,000,000 weaklings against SSJ4 Gogeta are still weaklings.

Ames · 05-09-2008

lol, you both should be repped for the information that you supply.

apocalypse1280 · 05-10-2008

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Originally Posted by Majuub

Well, can I just hear your explanation?

Actually, I didn't mean to write that answer for that question. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

I didn't say he didn't, I say the SSJ was a different situation. You're talking like they could do that everyday but they can't. It's the only situation where they can exceed their limits, not the lmits of their base from because they don't get stronger at base. SSJ just drastically multiplies one's power, it's not like they anyone can exceed their limits.

Like I said, he pushed him beyond his limits no matter how you try to word it.

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Originally Posted by Majuub

You saw what happenend when Tienshinhan was doing the Kikhoho on Cell? After a coupe of times he fell unconscious because he hadn't more energy left. Even if by that time, hand to hand he was much weaker tha Cell the attack still held Cell back for some time. It doesn't mean Tienshinhan is anywhere near Cell in terms of power. This attack just works differently because as you can see, it isn't a normal Ki attack like the Kamehameha or the Masenko, if Goku fires a Kamehameha on a blast much stronger than his, his kamehameha will just be destroyed by the blast. Tien doesn't even fire a blast like the others, he completely uses all his energy to do the Kikoho. Tienshinhan never got close to SSJ like power, his Kikoho deflecting Buu's attack was something totally different. I doubt any other attack could have the same effect. Honestly, aside from Tienshinhan, did you see anyone do that?

None of what you said made any sense. All I said was that Tien's Tri-Beam was stronger then Buu's ki blast... unless there's another re

05-09-2008	#142 (permalink)
Ames (13) Great Ape Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Madrid, Espana Posts: 316 Rep Power: 3	Re: SSJ2 Vegito (Buu Saga) vs. SSJ4 Goku (Surpassed Limits) lol, you both should be repped for the information that you supply. __________________ Ignorance is Bliss...