Janemba (Base Form) vs. Hirudagarn (Last Transformation) - Page 4

**Majuub** · 09-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broly

We know these few things about SSj Gogeta:

1. He beat Janemba in 30 seconds so he's obviously way more powerful than him.

2. Gogeta is < than Vegetto. Stated by Old Kai.

The fusion dance is far inferior to the Potara earrings. I think it's safe to say that he's most likely at Super Buu [Gotenks Prime]'s level. Not much more can be said on the matter because of the lack of information we have, but imo that seems to fit.

The old Kai only stated that the potara fusion was superior in no way he mentionned far superior. I really think the only reason is that the time limit is not there so Vegeto has a great advantage. Also if Gogeta goes SSJ4 his fusion lasts like 5mins and Vegeto doesn't have that problem so this is why he is superior, the old Kai also stated that the potara fusion strenghten the rivalry of Goku and Vegeta so it created a stronger fighter so Vegeto is stronger than Gogeta but not by much.
SSJ Gogeta would thrash Buuhan as easily as he thrashed Janemba no question about this one, he his the fusion of the same characters so he isn't far from Vegeto. Vegeto would dominate completely anyone, same for Gogeta.

Broly · 09-09-2007

Actually, nothing is said of the Potara giving Goku and Vegeta a rivalry bonus in the manga.

Vegetto is superior because of his unlimited time, but he is also superior because of the power of the earrings. Kibito Kai states that the Potara was suprisingly more powerful even after witnessing SSj3 Gotenks in action. This is why I think Vegetto is a deal of power greater than Gogeta.

There's nothing that suggests SSj Gogeta is as powerful as Super Buuhan anyway. In fact, there is more that suggests that he isn't.

**Majuub** · 09-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broly

Actually, nothing is said of the Potara giving Goku and Vegeta a rivalry bonus in the manga.

Actually the old Kai did say that since they are rivals it is normal that their union creates the strongest fighter in the universe, it is stated in the manga.
I don't see anything suggesting Gogeta is weaker than Buuhan, in fact it's nearly impossible that he is weaker or do you buy the thing that the potara fusion is 100x stronger than the fusion dance.

Broly · 09-11-2007

I own the entire DBZ manga, and I didn't see a page, paragraph, sentence, or word...that states what you speak of. If so, then show me the quote and referance of what you're presenting.

There are a couple things that say that SSj Gogeta is most likely weaker than Super Buuhan. One, the fusion dance is said to be noticably weaker than the Potara Fusion. Two, SSj Vegetto himself stated in the manga that the only reason Super Buuhan couldn't keep up with him was because he was only following with his eyes and not following the chi movement of his enemy instead. [which is what Vegetto was doing] At that level of strength, both Super Buuhan and SSj Vegetto were so powerful that they couldn't afford to be hit by each other's attacks. [moreso for Vegetto since Buu is able to regenerate]

**Majuub** · 09-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broly

I own the entire DBZ manga, and I didn't see a page, paragraph, sentence, or word...that states what you speak of. If so, then show me the quote and referance of what you're presenting.

There are a couple things that say that SSj Gogeta is most likely weaker than Super Buuhan. One, the fusion dance is said to be noticably weaker than the Potara Fusion. Two, SSj Vegetto himself stated in the manga that the only reason Super Buuhan couldn't keep up with him was because he was only following with his eyes and not following the chi movement of his enemy instead. [which is what Vegetto was doing] At that level of strength, both Super Buuhan and SSj Vegetto were so powerful that they couldn't afford to be hit by each other's attacks. [moreso for Vegetto since Buu is able to regenerate]

It seems you didn't check well, I don't know which translation you have, page 24, volume 42 when the old Kai speaks, he says that the fact they are rival creates the strongest fighter in the universe..
Lol, Super Buuhan was just using his eyes, even when Vegeto was using only his legs he was still getting his ass kicked, don,t try to find a reason for Super Buuhan getting dominate by Vegeto, the only reason was because he was far far far far far far far stronger. Even as a candy Vegeto was still stronger because he hadn't lost power at all, seems like Vegeto is so powerful that even this technic doesn't work agaisnt him. Gogeta would thrash Buuhan as easily as Vegeto did.

Broly · 09-11-2007

I have the Viz translation. Maybe you can get the quote, eh?

It was stated by Vegetto. If he says it, why shouldn't I believe him?

As a candy, Vegetto should be even harder to hit. And, if he maintains the same power, which he did, then it's no surprise.

You keep saying Gogeta is as powerful as Vegetto, but again, there's no proof.

**Majuub** · 09-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broly

I have the Viz translation. Maybe you can get the quote, eh?

It was stated by Vegetto. If he says it, why shouldn't I believe him?

As a candy, Vegetto should be even harder to hit. And, if he maintains the same power, which he did, then it's no surprise.

You keep saying Gogeta is as powerful as Vegetto, but again, there's no proof.

I have the french translation and the old kai says: And they are rival, it's normal that their union creates the most powerful fighter in the universe(Translation from french to english) p.24 vol.42.
I said that Gogeta was almost as powerful as Vegeto, in fact there is also no proof to claim he is a lot weaker, you seem very anti-Gogeta, just the way he kicked Janemba's ass without putting a single effort should show you that he his a lot stronger than anyone execpt Vegeto. If a SSJ Gotenks had powerful attacks such as Super Ghost Kamikaze attack, imagine what Gogeta can do, he is far stronger than SSJ or SSJ3 Gotenks.
Just in GT there is a proof SSJ4 Gogeta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Yi Xing Long>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta. Gogeta could have killed Yi Xing Long in 2hits, SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta had no hope of defeating him, it just gives you an idea of how much power they gain when they are fused. Goten and Trunks are 2 kids who have no passion for battle or for training, Goku and Vegeta are 2 of the strongest beings in DBZ, just watch Vegeto and it should give you an idea of how much powerful Gogeta would be. Vegeto is not 10x stronger than Gogeta, if he was then when Kibito and Kaioshin fused they would have been almost able to take on Kid Buu so don't buy the thing that the potara fusion is 10x stronger than the fusion dance cause it's not the case, in my opinion it's not even 2x stronger than the fusion dance.
As a candy Vegeto couldn't punch Buu because he would only make holes in Buu's body since he was too small to make a damaging attack, his attacks still hurt but they are a lot less damaging when he has no arms or no legs. If Vegeto stayed as a candy, how would he kill Buu since he can't fire any Ki blast.
The only time Vegeto said that Buu wasn't able to keep up with him because he was only using his eyes was the time when Buu made a smokescreen to prevent Vegeto of his vision. When they fought before Vegeto wasn't closing his eyes so he was also using them, there was no excuse for the fact that Vegeto was beating the crap out of Buuhan, the only reason was because Vegeto was far superir, end of story.

Broly · 09-12-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub666

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broly

I have the Viz translation. Maybe you can get the quote, eh?

It was stated by Vegetto. If he says it, why shouldn't I believe him?

As a candy, Vegetto should be even harder to hit. And, if he maintains the same power, which he did, then it's no surprise.

You keep saying Gogeta is as powerful as Vegetto, but again, there's no proof.

I have the french translation and the old kai says: And they are rival, it's normal that their union creates the most powerful fighter in the universe(Translation from french to english) p.24 vol.42.

I said that Gogeta was almost as powerful as Vegeto, in fact there is also no proof to claim he is a lot weaker, you seem very anti-Gogeta, just the way he kicked Janemba's ass without putting a single effort should show you that he his a lot stronger than anyone execpt Vegeto. If a SSJ Gotenks had powerful attacks such as Super Ghost Kamikaze attack, imagine what Gogeta can do, he is far stronger than SSJ or SSJ3 Gotenks.

Just in GT there is a proof SSJ4 Gogeta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Yi Xing Long>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta. Gogeta could have killed Yi Xing Long in 2hits, SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta had no hope of defeating him, it just gives you an idea of how much power they gain when they are fused. Goten and Trunks are 2 kids who have no passion for battle or for training, Goku and Vegeta are 2 of the strongest beings in DBZ, just watch Vegeto and it should give you an idea of how much powerful Gogeta would be. Vegeto is not 10x stronger than Gogeta, if he was then when Kibito and Kaioshin fused they would have been almost able to take on Kid Buu so don't buy the thing that the potara fusion is 10x stronger than the fusion dance cause it's not the case, in my opinion it's not even 2x stronger than the fusion dance.

As a candy Vegeto couldn't punch Buu because he would only make holes in Buu's body since he was too small to make a damaging attack, his attacks still hurt but they are a lot less damaging when he has no arms or no legs. If Vegeto stayed as a candy, how would he kill Buu since he can't fire any Ki blast.

The only time Vegeto said that Buu wasn't able to keep up with him because he was only using his eyes was the time when Buu made a smokescreen to prevent Vegeto of his vision. When they fought before Vegeto wasn't closing his eyes so he was also using them, there was no excuse for the fact that Vegeto was beating the crap out of Buuhan, the only reason was because Vegeto was far superir, end of story.

Hm. I'm not anti-Gogeta, I just know his place well. Just because he can kill Janemba in 30 seconds doesn't mean he could do the same to someone like Super Buuhan. Even if Super Buuhan split back into Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan either of even them would be able to do more of the same of what Gogeta dealt. Janemba is not that much stronger than SSj3 as we saw Goku fair quite well.

Gotenks' Kamikaze attack didn't kill Super Buu, it only woounded him. Even when he through like 6 of them at him they still didn't kill him-not even after being reduced to ash did he die. Although, I do agree that SSj Gogeta is most likely stronger than Super Buu.

I'm well aware of the power of fusion. It's obvious that the Potara isn't 10x stronger than the Fusion Dance, but the Potara is indeed stronger...noticably.

If Vegetto maintains the same power as his former state, he's most likely able to shoot a ki blast from his candy body. I'm sure he still maintained the ability to kill Buu, otherwise Buu wouldn't've turned him back to normal.

Yes, Vegetto did use his eyes to fight, but he also used his ability to feel the movement of chi that his opponent emits. That's how he was able to slap Buu around through the smoke. I definately agree that Vegetto was superior but I don't think it was as much as you think. Besides, you only need a difference of 1.3x your opponent in order ta 'school' them.

Now, as for your translation. I have what I have. And that's the english translation of the manga. In it, it tells me that Goku and Vegeta are the greatest warriors in the world of the living and dead. The only other tidbit of information is gives is this: Old Kai - "And it doesn't hurt that they live to outdo each other." He only means that their rivalry against each other won't hurt the outcome of the fusion. He says nothing of a rivalry boost, at least not in the book I own.

**Majuub** · 09-12-2007

When the old Kai said that their rivalry doesn't hurt, it was saracastic meaning that the fusion will acutally be better because they have opposite personalites but the same love for fighting.
You really think that Vegeto was 1.3x stronger than Buu, we are not talking a fight like Super Buu vs Gohan, we are talking about the fact that Vegeto was still stronger even when he only used his legs. I don't even know how superior Vegeto is to Buuhan but he is far superior, they never said that the potara fusion was noticabely superior, they say it was greater, not far greater or anything, just greater. We can assume that Vegeto is greater than Gogeta, we can also assume that Vegeto is far greater than Buuhan so we can also assume that Gogeta is at least greater than Buuhan.

Devilz · 09-12-2007

IMO SSJ Vegito is at the very least 2x over Gohan Buu. He was owning so hard it wasn't even funny. I would put him as far as over 3x stronger.

FierceGamer · 09-13-2007

Broly, you say Goku fared quite well against Janemba. That's just not true. It was a horrible mismatch. He was cut, bleeding, and completely owned. He didn't have a chance.

XToushiroX · 09-13-2007

Hirudagarn would defiantly rape Janemba
and here's what i think
SSJ Gogeta > Hirudagarn > Janemba > Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

Broly · 09-13-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub666

When the old Kai said that their rivalry doesn't hurt, it was saracastic meaning that the fusion will acutally be better because they have opposite personalites but the same love for fighting.

You really think that Vegeto was 1.3x stronger than Buu, we are not talking a fight like Super Buu vs Gohan, we are talking about the fact that Vegeto was still stronger even when he only used his legs. I don't even know how superior Vegeto is to Buuhan but he is far superior, they never said that the potara fusion was noticabely superior, they say it was greater, not far greater or anything, just greater. We can assume that Vegeto is greater than Gogeta, we can also assume that Vegeto is far greater than Buuhan so we can also assume that Gogeta is at least greater than Buuhan.

Fusion is fusion. It can't be any more complete then it is when two people fuse. That's why he's actually referring to the power of the Potaras.

I didn't say SSj Vegetto was 1.3x stronger than Super Buuhan. I said that in order for a person to totally own another person they would have to be at least 1.3x their opponents power. So, yes, Vegetto is obviously at least that strong.

Well, actually yes, they did deem it as superior through their implications and statements.

@ Fierce Gamer - I hope you don't misunderstand me. When I say "faired well" I don't mean he did exceptionally well. I mean that he held his own for quite a while considering how powerful Janemba is. If you look back on the fight, he landed quite a few blows on him. And the fact that he could dodge most of his attacks is another reason why I say that. SSj3 Goku may not have been strong enough to be his equal, but he certainly gave him a good run. If you can't see that...well...[8-)]...I don't know what to say. Even Vegeta gave Janemba a good fight considering he was only a MSSj.

**Majuub** · 09-13-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub666

When the old Kai said that their rivalry doesn't hurt, it was saracastic meaning that the fusion will acutally be better because they have opposite personalites but the same love for fighting.

You really think that Vegeto was 1.3x stronger than Buu, we are not talking a fight like Super Buu vs Gohan, we are talking about the fact that Vegeto was still stronger even when he only used his legs. I don't even know how superior Vegeto is to Buuhan but he is far superior, they never said that the potara fusion was noticabely superior, they say it was greater, not far greater or anything, just greater. We can assume that Vegeto is greater than Gogeta, we can also assume that Vegeto is far greater than Buuhan so we can also assume that Gogeta is at least greater than Buuhan.

Fusion is fusion. It can't be any more complete then it is when two people fuse. That's why he's actually referring to the power of the Potaras.

I didn't say SSj Vegetto was 1.3x stronger than Super Buuhan. I said that in order for a person to totally own another person they would have to be at least 1.3x their opponents power. So, yes, Vegetto is obviously at least that strong.

Well, actually yes, they did deem it as superior through their implications and statements.

@ Fierce Gamer - I hope you don't misunderstand me. When I say "faired well" I don't mean he did exceptionally well. I mean that he held his own for quite a while considering how powerful Janemba is. If you look back on the fight, he landed quite a few blows on him. And the fact that he could dodge most of his attacks is another reason why I say that. SSj3 Goku may not have been strong enough to be his equal, but he certainly gave him a good run. If you can't see that...well...

...I don't know what to say. Even Vegeta gave Janemba a good fight considering he was only a MSSj.

Stated by the old Kai, the potara fusion WORKS BETTER it means the fusion is more complete and without flaws.
Stated by Kibitoshin, I didn't know the potara fusion was so POWERFUL.
The old Kai said it worked better, and Kibitoshin said it was powerful, so when the old Kai was talking about the fact that it worked better he was talking about the way the fusion perfectly mereged their personalites and balanced their strenght. Why would Kibitoshin said that it was powerful if the old Kai already said it, it means that the old Kai wasn't talking about the power but the way it fused the two personalites and characters.
Vegeto=Potara fusion+Rivalry boost
Gogeta=Fusion dance
Read volumes 40-41-42, you'll get your facts right about the rivalry boost.

09-09-2007	#47 (permalink)
Broly G-Villain Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Big Bad Walk. Posts: 7,414 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 23	Re: Janemba (Base Form) vs Hirudagarn (Last Transformation) Actually, nothing is said of the Potara giving Goku and Vegeta a rivalry bonus in the manga. Vegetto is superior because of his unlimited time, but he is also superior because of the power of the earrings. Kibito Kai states that the Potara was suprisingly more powerful even after witnessing SSj3 Gotenks in action. This is why I think Vegetto is a deal of power greater than Gogeta. There's nothing that suggests SSj Gogeta is as powerful as Super Buuhan anyway. In fact, there is more that suggests that he isn't. __________________ $E:\Avatars\Broly_by_Hikas.jpg$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb58XZk9cpY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUgQB...eature=related

09-11-2007	#49 (permalink)
Broly G-Villain Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Big Bad Walk. Posts: 7,414 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 23	Re: Janemba (Base Form) vs Hirudagarn (Last Transformation) I own the entire DBZ manga, and I didn't see a page, paragraph, sentence, or word...that states what you speak of. If so, then show me the quote and referance of what you're presenting. There are a couple things that say that SSj Gogeta is most likely weaker than Super Buuhan. One, the fusion dance is said to be noticably weaker than the Potara Fusion. Two, SSj Vegetto himself stated in the manga that the only reason Super Buuhan couldn't keep up with him was because he was only following with his eyes and not following the chi movement of his enemy instead. [which is what Vegetto was doing] At that level of strength, both Super Buuhan and SSj Vegetto were so powerful that they couldn't afford to be hit by each other's attacks. [moreso for Vegetto since Buu is able to regenerate] __________________ $E:\Avatars\Broly_by_Hikas.jpg$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb58XZk9cpY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUgQB...eature=related

09-11-2007	#51 (permalink)
Broly G-Villain Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Big Bad Walk. Posts: 7,414 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 23	Re: Janemba (Base Form) vs Hirudagarn (Last Transformation) I have the Viz translation. Maybe you can get the quote, eh? It was stated by Vegetto. If he says it, why shouldn't I believe him? As a candy, Vegetto should be even harder to hit. And, if he maintains the same power, which he did, then it's no surprise. You keep saying Gogeta is as powerful as Vegetto, but again, there's no proof. __________________ $E:\Avatars\Broly_by_Hikas.jpg$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb58XZk9cpY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUgQB...eature=related

09-12-2007	#54 (permalink)
Majuub Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,631 Rep Power: 105	Re: Janemba (Base Form) vs Hirudagarn (Last Transformation) When the old Kai said that their rivalry doesn't hurt, it was saracastic meaning that the fusion will acutally be better because they have opposite personalites but the same love for fighting. You really think that Vegeto was 1.3x stronger than Buu, we are not talking a fight like Super Buu vs Gohan, we are talking about the fact that Vegeto was still stronger even when he only used his legs. I don't even know how superior Vegeto is to Buuhan but he is far superior, they never said that the potara fusion was noticabely superior, they say it was greater, not far greater or anything, just greater. We can assume that Vegeto is greater than Gogeta, we can also assume that Vegeto is far greater than Buuhan so we can also assume that Gogeta is at least greater than Buuhan. __________________

09-13-2007	#56 (permalink)
FierceGamer (13) Great Ape Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New York, NY Posts: 286 Rep Power: 2	Re: Janemba (Base Form) vs Hirudagarn (Last Transformation) Broly, you say Goku fared quite well against Janemba. That's just not true. It was a horrible mismatch. He was cut, bleeding, and completely owned. He didn't have a chance. __________________ One day Chuck Norris walked down the street with a massive erection ... there were no survivors.

09-13-2007	#57 (permalink)
XToushiroX (12) Saiyan Prince Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A-Town Posts: 219 Rep Power: 2	Re: Janemba (Base Form) vs Hirudagarn (Last Transformation) Hirudagarn would defiantly rape Janemba and here's what i think SSJ Gogeta > Hirudagarn > Janemba > Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku __________________

09-14-2007	#60 (permalink)
Broly G-Villain Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Big Bad Walk. Posts: 7,414 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 23