Majuub

The title seems a bit ridiculous since anybody is like ''He's crazy, how can he think anyone at base, even fusions are stronger than an SSJ4''

Well, I have some logical explanations, I was talking about that in the Z section but members there aside from a few don't care about what anyone has to say and just post for the sake of posting.

Originally posted by me:

Thoughts?

Edit: Don't come and say Gogeta is 5x stronger than Vegeto, I don't want to start it again. If you don't put Gogeta has high as Vegeto it doesn't matter, going by my logic base Vegeto would still be above SSJ4 Goku.

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SRP76

All that hinges on the assumption that base Vegeta = base Goku. Actually, that may not even matter.

Take a look at Gotenks for this. Gotenks is the same EXACT Fusion type as Gogeta, so it cannot be disputed.

Judging by the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta is equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, and Vegeta did NOT walk away from his fight with Buu, while Gotenks DID, base Gotenks has to be around Super Saiyan 2 Goku in power.

If base Gotenks = Super Saiyan 2 Goku, we're down to one question:

"Do you think Super Saiyan 2 Goku is stronger than a theoretical Super Saiyan 4 Trunks?"

If "yes", then base Gogeta would be stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku. If "no", then he would not be.

Majuub

That's not quite it. I agree with most of what you said aside from one thing. Yes, Gogeta and Gotenks are made from the same type of fusion, however, not from the same beings. Take a look at Vegeto, it was stated the rivarly somehow gave Vegeto even more power. Going by the logic, it's not the potaras that give the power but the characters themselves. If a fusion between Goku and Vegeta has a rivarly boost, then it screws everything up. I don't think Gotenks and Gogeta are the exact same type of fusion. Even if there was no such thing as rivarly boost, the power up could always work like that:

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Base x Base=Fusion

That would mean

Goku: 100

Vegeta: 100

Gogeta: 100x100=10,000

Goten: 20

Trunks: 20

Gotenks: 20x20=400

Or it could work like that

Goku: 100

Vegeta: 100

Gogeta: 100+100x10+(rivalry boost)= 3,000

Goten: 20

Trunks: 20

Gotenks: 20+20x10=400
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You see, there is the problem. It seems in a fusion personalty matters, the way the two characters have a chemistry between them seems to matter also. We don't know how fusion works at all, we can only base ourselves from their power, not calculations since they could work in a lot of different ways.

Also, no one can tell if SSJ4 Trunks would be stronger than SSJ4 Goku since no one knows the multiplier. Just imagine if the multiplier from SSJ to SSJ2 is 50x and from SSJ3 to SSJ4 it's 10x, that would make something completely different. Some view Goku about 10x stronger than Goten while others view him as 5x stronger. There is also the fact some says Goku is a MSSJ and not Goten. Let's suppose I'm a Goku fanboy, it goes like this:

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Goku: 1000

MSSJ Goku: 25,000

SSJ2 Goku: 12,500,000

Goten: 100

SSJ Goten: 1,000

SSJ2 Goten: 50,000

SSJ3 Goten: 1,000,000

SSJ4 Goten: 10,000,000

__________________________________________________ ______

See, and you can argue with a fanboy for hours, there is just no way to prove he is completely wrong since there aren't any stated numbers, we don't know for sure if Goten and Trunks are MSSJ and we don't know if Goku's multiplier from SSJ to SSJ2 would be higher then their multiplier. That's the problem I have with that.

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SRP76

Goten and Trunks "live to outdo each other" just as much as Vegeta and Goku. So anything Gogeta would get, Gotenks got.

Looking at it again, the Potara have to be stronger than the dance anyway. Any way I figure it, I can't give the two Fusions the same multiplier and have Vegeta far enough ahead of Goten to fit the distance between Gotenks and Vegito. I can get Vegeta up to about 8x Goten's power, but he'd need to be at least 16x stronger than Gotenks to fit.

By that, I can get base Gogeta far ahead of Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but not enough to match Super Saiyan 4 Goku. I have Super Saiyan Gogeta ahead, though.

Multiplying the power levels doesn't help. It results in Vegito and Gotenks being far too strong.

Majuub

Now come on, Goten and Trunks don't live to outdo each other. Vegeta's sole ambition was to beat Goku and he even let Babidi control him to do so, there isn't an intense rivarly between Goten and Trunks. It's not like they fought each other the first time they met and one reached SSJ in the face of the other making him jealous to a point he couldn't understand why he was the saiyan prince and couldn't get that kind of power. Nothing was stated about them having something special about a rivarly, so I think we'll just leave it at that.

Now you see, that depends of the multiplier yet again, it'll change if you give a 50x multiplier to the SSJ4 and a 10x multiplier to the SSJ2. Everything is purely personal while in my theory it's just base on actions and statements. If I have to use multipliers, I use the same for every transformations.

Some people place Vegeta 15x higher than Goten =/

That's really the BIG problem with these multiplier things and power ups and fusion boost etc.

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gokussj2

did you noticed that 90% of this forum is PL threads

SRP76

So do I, up to Super Saiyan 3.

I can guarantee that Fusion doesn't multiply the powers together. I ran a check:

Goten = 10
Trunks = 10
Super Saiyan Goten = 30
Super Saiyan Goten = 30

Super Saiyan 3x base here (you can make it anything you want; it doesn't matter, as you'll see)

Multiply Goten and Trunks to get base Gotenks:

Gotenks = 100
Super Saiyan Gotenks = 300

See how it doesn't matter, as long as it's consistent (the same for Gotenks as it is for Trunks and Goten).

BUT, multiply Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan Trunks, to get a Super Saiyan Gotenks:

Super Saiyan Gotenks = 30 x 30 = 900

UH-OH!

Since we have the same character not being equal to itself, this system is a failure.

So, we can at least rule that out.

Majuub

I don't think so. You see, the first time Gotenks fought Shin Buu he was at base, then he turned SSJ, but that SSJ Gotenks wasn't stronger than a SSJ Gotenks if they fused as SSJ. Maybe in the fusion only their base power matters, as for the rest it might be another story. You see the point, we could go on for weeks talking about that issue and no one would be right or wrong.

One last thing to prove the logic you posted doesn't kill the ''logic'' I posted earlier.

Goten(Post ROSAT): 100

Trunks(Post ROSAT): 100

Gotenks(Post ROSAT): 10,000

SSJ Gotenks(Post ROSAT): 50,000

Going by your logic, when they fused as SSJ before the going to the ROSAT they should have been much more powerful than when they turned SSJ after fusion, but they weren't, in fact they were weaker. So, wether they fuse as SSJ1000 or base, the fusion will still have the exact same power.

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Madness

Look at how much of DBZ is based on power, and you'll see why.

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Majuub

I don't use power levels nor multipliers as there is no way to know how they work. I just took random numbers such as 10 or 1,000.

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Devilz

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SRP76

No, there is no "stronger" and "weaker". Super Saiyan Gotenks = Super Saiyan Gotenks, whether he is Super Saiyan before fusing, or goes Super Saiyan after fusing.

You have Super Saiyan Gotenks at 5x Gotenks there. You have Trunks and Goten at 100. That means Super Saiyan Trunks and Super Saiyan Goten would be 500 each. Multiply them, and you get Super Saiyan Gotenks = 250,000.

The same guy can not be 5x stronger than himself. He IS himself. It doesn't matter if he fuses after turning Super Saiyan, or before.

Majuub

That's why I said wether they go SSJ or not prior to fusion doesn't change anything. Maybe it's just their base power that matters.

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uki1234

Babadi had no influence on Buu when he was fighting Vegeta, and Vegeta isn't a moron. I'm sure that he knew that there is no way for him to escape.

apocalypse1280

So wouldn't base Gotenks be equal with SSJ2 Majin Vegeta also, since you said SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was equal to SSJ2 Goku? Besides there's a difference. Neither base Gotenks nor Vegeta could beat Majin Buu, only Gotenks decided to escape when he had the chance and Vegeta decided to blow himself up as a last resort to try and kill Buu. If you ask me, I think SSJ2 Majin Vegeta fought better against Majin Buu then base Gotenks did IMO. And no, I'm not saying he's stronger.

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