Broly

Hello my friends. I hope to get a good deal of feedback. Feel free to state your own opinions, thoughts, or even reproofing. I encourage you. But before you post, please, refrain from biased as well as ludicrous statements, if not of course reinforced by facts, hints, theories, explanations, or something of the sort. So, sit back, perhaps grab a drink or a bag of chips, and enjoy the presentation.

I was going to speak about Broly’s base power, but that doesn’t seem like an issue here. Most of the Broly debates are in relation to his SSj states. So we’ll start from there. I noticed a few things when watching SSj Broly in Movie 8, and how he’s somehow indirectly paralleled with the event Cell went through by the same character, Vegeta, whom assaulted both of them in the same fashion. SSj Vegeta attacks Broly, kicking him in the neck/upper right shoulder area. Vegeta, though in a different state, did the same thing to Cell back during their fight, and in both instances, there was no effect on either Cell or Broly. Then, we see Vegeta back in Movie 8 throw a ki blast at Broly after his kick. Again, there is no effect whatsoever. My thought on this is that Broly is around Complete Cell’s suppressed level of power. Considering SSj Vegeta [Post RoSaT] is around Incomplete Cell’s power, hinted to by 16. He says in reply to 18’s doubt of Vegeta’s claim, “It is odd, though…Vegeta’s power has increased significantly since last time.” Here, it seems, 16 is hinting that Vegeta would be some kind of match for Cell, since he says nothing of any kind of insufficiency on Vegeta’s part in contrast to Cell. It is however true though that Cell mocks Vegeta. But, I’m of the opinion, since Cell had more power in that form yet to reveal, that he was merely downsizing Vegeta because of that in particular. It doesn’t mean Vegeta was of insufficient power in regards to Incomplete Cell’s [2nd form; base power] at the time. So, I believe that Vegeta was around that level of power in Movie 8 as well, when he assaulted Broly in said description above. Now, the degree and effect to which Cell and Broly’s heads tilt when kicked by Vegeta in both instances, on the earthen-rock bridge in Movie 8, and on the island Vegeta got murdered on in the Complete Cell Arc, is irrelevant because of Vegeta’s different levels of power in each of the battles. Now, for someone to not take attention or damage of your attack, they would have to be two times your power. And I believe SSj Broly [Movie 8] is at least that compared to SSj Vegeta [Movie 8; Post-RoSaT]. He [SSj Broly (Movie 8)] is, if not a bit weaker, around Complete Cell’s suppressed state.

Many questions and perplexities arise of whether Goku and Gohan were MSSjs in Movie 8 or not. There’s not much more that I can say than what I’ve already mentioned in various threads. The facts seem to hint that yes, they were indeed MSSjs. Although, the facts are of non-cannon material, I deem them to be reputable. First off, The OVA Gaiden, Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jins, shows Piccolo make mention of Mr. Satan and his stupidity and annoyingness. They never saw Mr. Satan until after Goku and Gohan came out of the RoSaT and were already relaxing during the ten day period. Goku states that Hatchyack may be a bit stronger than LSSj Broly [Movie 8] if not equal with him. It’s because of this that Goku and Gohan are MSSjs in the OVA, and thus, because of Goku’s statement, they’re also MSSjs in Movie 8. Secondly, Piccolo is shown in Movie 8 to be keeping up with the rest of the Zet Senshi, indicating he had been through the RoSaT. In the manga, as well as the anime, he never even entered the chamber until Goku and Gohan came outside it. I hear many people tell me that Goku and Gohan simply cannot be MSSjs because they did not reside within their form; nonsense. It’s true that Toriyama had Goku and Gohan stay in their SSj states, apparently the whole ten days. However, it’s very well known that the movie creators do not go side by side with the canon universe. Examples of this would be Dende’s appearance in Movie 6 as Guardian of Earth, Vegeta not appearing in Movie 10 [he should be able to sense Broly’s power, just like Gohan did], and another would be showing a seeming MSSj Vegeta face Shin Janemba toe-to-toe, when SSj3 Goku just got beaten. And of course, there is the mess that is Movie 13. I don’t think I have to bring up an example on that one. It’s full of plotholes, or in this case, things that just aren’t explained. Goku and Gohan don’t reside within their SSj states in the Buu Arc like they did before in the Cell Game. This proves that one doesn’t have to do such after achieving that access. Mastering the form simply means that one has minimized the ki-toll on their body caused by the Super Saiyan state. [Stated by Vegeta himself, who even understood it before Piccolo] That’s all it is. So even if they aren’t in their SSj states, it’s no reason to say that they are not MSSjs in Movie 8. They went through the RoSaT, and achieved it, so it cannot be simply taken away. If they transform into SSj, we know that they’re actually MSSj.

Broly’s defeat in Movie 8, it seems, is often misinterpreted by numerous members. I believe Broly was only defeated because, quite simply, the Zet Senshi cheated. Broly took on all five Super Warriors in Movie 8: MSSj Goku, MSSj Gohan, SSj 2nd Grade Vegeta [end fight for him], SSj 2nd Grade Trunks [when Vegeta fought LSSj Broly], and Super Namekain Piccolo. Members state that their compiled powers equaled MSSj Goku [Cell Game], but I don’t see how that is possible. Neither do I see how Broly’s defeat in Movie 8 could make sense if they merely combined their base state power levels, which by that time, had decreased below even their resting norm, since they were all thrashed. In no way could they equal MSSj Goku’s level either, since in my view of things, and in light of all I’ve said so far, MSSj Goku [full power] is no match for LSSj Broly. I think that the Toei writers meant for their full powers to be combined together, which would make sense of Broly’s defeat in my eyes at least. Goku punched a hole through Broly, but I think Goku put about all his energy into that punch. And also, after receiving all the energy, I would believe Goku to be equal to Broly’s LSSj state there. You can even see Goku looking fatigued as he’s falling after he gives the punch.

To me, the movies should not be tried to make sense solely using the canon material. Why? Well I know its canon, but the canon can’t explain the non-canon anymore than a white person looks similar in color to a black person. They’re both different universes in that sense.

I would also like to present this:Goku's Kamehameha multiplies his power level. When he fought Raditz, he charged up a Kamehameha to fire, and Raditz noticed his PL increase from 416 to 1030, which is a near 2.5 increase. So we know his level of power does flare up when he unleashes ki attacks like the Kamehameha. Then, later we see Piccolo charge his Special Beam Cannon. Again, Raditz notices the change in his power level. From 408, Piccolo's ki rises to 1330. That's over a 3 times increase in ki power. Raditz had a PL of 1,200. That's like a 1.1 difference, and it was just enough to kill him. Goku's charged ki [for the Kamehameha] in movie 8, at that point, in my opinion, increased his power level 3 times what it was. I think it could be a bit more than before because of his Super Saiyan increase though. Broly was not affected at all by Goku's charged Kamehameha Wave. So, that would mean that Broly is at least 3x the power of MSSj Goku, since he wasn’t even scratched or blown away in any form or sort by the blast, if all this were indeed in order.

Personal estimation:
MSSj Goku [Movie 8] - 12,000,000,000
LSSj Broly [Movie 8] - 40,000,000,000

That’s where I would place LSSj Broly [Movie 8], about equal to Complete Cell [full power].

I’d also like to speak about Movie 10. Broly received a Zenkai upon his healing and preservation in the ice for that seven year period. He was injured to the point of death, no doubt, with a hole in his chest. His wound did heal. And by the manga’s standards, that would be eligible for a Zenkai. Cell received a Zenkai when he came to a near death. He never stated that a Super Saiyan couldn’t receive Zenkais. If he has Saiyan cells, and he is able to do receive it at the level of strength he is at, I ask you, why can’t it happen to a regular Super Saiyan? It can. And Broly received one in Movie 10. Now, SSj Trunks obviously holds some type of real power, along with Goten. If he can kick Buu through a couple of mounds of rocks, and get him off of Vegeta, then he would at least have to be around Complete Cell’s suppressed power, along with Goten.

And also, SSj Goten is shown bouting with SSj Gohan quite evenly in the Saiya-Man Arc, though Gohan was probably holding back a bit. So, yes, they’re actually stronger than SSj Broly [Movie 8; Restrained], the SSj Broly on the bridge before transforming, by my calculations anyway. And I believe this is testament that Broly did receive a noticeable increase in Movie 10. If I had to say precisely, I would say that Goten is around 7,000,000,000 with MSSj Gohan at that time being at 11,000,000,000. I guess Gohan is about 38% stronger than him. Trunks is probably around 8,000,000,000 in my opinion.

Now, SSj Broly [Movie 10], the way he was taking those hits head [by Trunks and Goten] on says a lot about his strength right there. In my view, he’s five times their level approximately, due to the massive Zenkai he received, which I think multiplied his power 5 fold. And if you watch in the movie, his power literally crumbles the planet as his powering up ripped the planet a hole, spewing magma through and through. He’s actually pretty powerful in Movie 10, even as a SSj. I’m think Broly is at 25,000,000,000, most likely rivaling Bojack’s 1st form. And then there is the usual brought up discussion about how Base Gohan actually looked like he was doing okay against SSj Broly, so he must be of a weaker level…no. If what I say is correct about SSj Broly equaling Bojack [1st Form], then that means that Broly is just playing around, attacking wildly. Even looking at the fight, Broly did not loose ground against Gohan. Actually, Gohan did dodge his punch, but Broly was not touched at all by the ki blast, and Gohan was the one left defeated after their little preliminary. Broly was toying with Gohan, ultimately. As you saw, he aimed a ki ball at Gohan but diverted its path towards the boys and Videl. He didn’t really get serious about fighting Gohan until he transformed. In my view, Broly’s LSSj power level is 250,000,000,000, enough to take SSj2 Adult Gohan, whom I think bears a level of 160,000,000,000. I think they both got around a ten times increase upon transforming. A 1.5x difference in favor of Broly here, I think. Thus showing how he was able to own SSj2 Gohan in the fashion he performed.

Broly’s death is misconstrued as a sign of his weakness by many Broly haters. However I don’t feel that the combined Kamehameha is what killed him. We are shown in Movie 10 that his shield successfully blocks the oncoming penetration force, but was not strong enough to stop its momentum, so Broly was pushed back, miraculously, into the Sun, going through one side, coming out the other side. If you watch that particular part, it shows Broly entering the Sun, his back facing it’s direction, and then you see his heart explode, while he’s being pushed backwards, then the camera moves from the center of the Sun on the other side upwards as though showing Broly was blasted through the Sun’s core and out the other side. If his body is moving in a forward direction, why would the explosion coming out the side he entered into when his shield is being pushed by the Kamehameha with devastating momentum? I tend to think his shield blocked the Triple Chou Kamehameha, but was blasted through the Sun, so his shield shattered, his heart exploded and his body turned to nothing.



Well, those are my thoughts on most of the matter. Go ahead and leave any feedback, criticism, or smack-talk you want.

SRP76

Actually, he's paralleled with the "ascended" states that the Saiyans use when facing Cell. It's not about a kick; the obvious truth is staring everyone right in the face: Broly was created to showcase that form. Nothing more or less.

Senzu_Bean

First I want to say I admire you because it is very, very rare to see someone with your knowledge about Dragon Ball believe Broly is actually a strong character and not some weakling like most people try to make him basing in absurd statements.

Second I share the same opinion of you though I still have my doubts if Vegeta when kicked Broly's neck was just a mere SSj or SSj 2nd Grade like later when fought with Broly. Though like you said it is irrelevant in this subject.

Third for the ones who keep instead Broly didn't received a Zenkai, here is the proof: http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2588/brolibi7.jpg

Overall great post.

remixremix

I do believe thatabrolly is around ssj2 but i wouldnt put him on a ssj3 level.....Brolly you put the spotlight to much on goten it was just training

-But the real truth about brolly will never be answered

-But one thing is sure he really looks cool not like the other saiyans

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Devilz

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The Electron Zone

By George he gots it. Hopefully this will settle dispuits between Broly haters and Broly Fans.

As you can see he does now have the power of an SSJ4 (as some claim) but has a power level equal or greater than a MSSJ (correct me if i'm wrong). As a Broly fan, I would say things as Broly rules and Broly this and Brolty that, but as time goes buy i realized that the time period in which the movie was placed was during Pre or Post Cell Arc making reasons why i doubt he is the strongest (which is not; i realized that a LONG time ago). Now for the past months, I have been doing what Broly has done, coming up with reasons, but since I have no use for mine anymore I might as well get rid of it.

IOU Rep Broly

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Senzu_Bean

Maybe because the "movie" is at pair with other TOEI movies in term of canocity.

Deep thought

I agree with Devilz, as the Mid-RoSat theory sounds more probable in my opinion. Besides, Broly is nowhere near 1.5x stronger than Super Sayajin 2 Gohan, because Gohan was able to escape his grasp and even hurt Broly.

BTW, when the difference between someone is 1.3x, you can't hurt them. At all.

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Devilz

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Senzu_Bean

You are forgetting about this: http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4688/brolywtffb6.gif

Made by TOEI which make it on pair with other DBZ movies.

Zer0

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Devilz

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Senzu_Bean

Thus you put Piccolo at around #17 power, right?

Zer0

Maybe.

That, a Toei boost or my second view I like less...

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gkrt

I will still say thay LSSJ Broly is between FPSSJ Gohan and Super Perfect Cell.

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