Plenty of Gogeta threads but this is different...

[ANB]

SSJ3>SSJ4

Anyone thought of that...? Maybe not, at least not without abstract thought. But for serious, there is no hidden message or baseless theory here. All I have are hard-core facts.

1-SSJ3 strains the body.

Goku had an easier time dead but when he returned to the world of the living, Goku couldn't even use his full-power. In fact, as he was exerting himself against Kid Boo the form just went "poof" like the hard-drive crashed. His body was being overstrained and it isn't healthy.

2-SSJ3 is unnatural

This is bigger then you think. We already know there is a huge, unimaginable amount of fatige with the form. But that's not all, because Goku's time on Earth was stated to shorten his time on Earth. Goku knew he had to teach Goten and Trunks fusion so he could only play with Boo and buy time. If he got serious he would loose track of the time and it would be over with for humankind.

So even considering Goku was DEAD and could thus handle the strain better, it was so powerful that it warped time itself (or at least, accelerated Goku's lifespan). It is also likely that Goku was only able to achieve the form with outside interefernce (the fact he was dead and could handle it, the other alien warriors he could train with who might be able to help him discover it) But that's not all!

3-GT presents SSJ4 as if it's natural.

The golden Oozaroo metamorphesis occurs when a saiyajin looks at a "full-planet" rather then a moon. Nothing unnatural there, it's just something they never tried before. Well, it's seems to be natural for saiyajins to be in control of themselves while Oozaroo! Even in the manga, Kuririn speculates that "Goku and Gohan only appear to loose their minds because they are kind and don't delve into their saiyajin savagery". Going by the anime, and the fact Vegeta says "he'd never be a slobbering beast" every saiyajin should be able to control themself. Bardocks crew wasn't exactly "evil" but they were proud saiyajins and let their savagery loose.

So if Golden Oozaroo is natural, and controlling it is natural, SSJ4 is natural. I already pointed out how SSJ3 is always presented as being otherworldy and unnaturally stressfull.

But that isn't even my crux, hrr hrr hrr~<3

4-SSJ3 forced the metamorine fusion to only 5 minutes wheras SSJ4 GOGETA only cut it back by 3 (27 minute fusion). SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ4 Gogeta!

This is even in the manga!!! SSJ3 Gotenks can only be that way for five minutes because of the unnatural strain. In fact, that's why Boo told the kids to fuse and go to theri strongest form right-off-the-bat in their rematch: He wanted to take advantage of the 5 minute window of opportunity. Trunks tells Goten in volume 25 "I guess it's weakness is time. We can only use it for 5 minutes...". Way to go Toei. You have once again created a plot inconsistency and fucked up the power-ladder.

It makes me wonder if SSJ3 Gotenks is on par with Kid Goku, let alone LSSJ Nappa (who seems to be SSJ2 according to certain insightfull members).

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this even if you came up with it yourself (or even if you hate GT, lol). Discuss at your own leisure.


--Akuma No Barrakku, the bassira.

[SRP76]

Super Saiyan 3 is difficult because Goku hadn't done it very often. It takes time and practice to get to use a form freely. They established that when the original Super Saiyan came about. Why would it change?

And I have no idea where you get the idea that Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was around for 27 minutes. Nothing of the sort was ever mentioned. And putting a stopwatch on the episode to see how long he was on-screen doesn't cut it. It's not real-world time.

[Madness]

I've actually thought about this before, and I think it makes sense. SSJ3 obviously put much more strain on the body than SSJ4 did, but that doesn't really mean it was more powerful. Just less controllable. Kaioken x 20 was a bigger drain than SSJ, but it doesn't mean it was more powerful.

[ANB]

Yeah...but Gotenks forced the fusion down to 5 minutes and SSJ4 GOGETA only cut it by three (27 minutes)!

My point is, Toei f***ed up yet again trying to make him look cool when he ended up looking like a douche for the second time (the first was him playing around to begin with).

And I have no idea where you get the idea that Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was around for 27 minutes. Nothing of the sort was ever mentioned. And putting a stopwatch on the episode to see how long he was on-screen doesn't cut it. It's not real-world time.

Rofl, I didn't estimate the time. I'm pretty sure they said it in the episode. I thougt this was common knowledge...? :o

EDIT:

Gogeta:
One of the most powerful characters in all of Dragonball/Z/GT, Gogeta is the result of the fusion between Goku and Vegeta. Gogeta appears only in DBZ Movie 12, and in GT. Done by the fusion [COLOR=green! important][COLOR=green! important]dance[/color][/color] Gogeta is many times more powerful than either Goku or Vegeta alone. Gogeta is a totally different person, and so his personality is completely different than either of the two Saiyan's that fused to become him. Gogeta's power is simply enormous as he takes out Janemba effortlessly in DBZ Movie 12 after reaching Super Saiyan 2. By GT, his power is almost beyond comprehension as Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Vegeta fuse to create Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta, probably the most powerful character in the entire history of the series. His special attack is Big Bang Kamehameha. The only reason that Gogeta does not completely obliterate Omega Shenron is because of his own cockiness. Gogeta toys with the Dragon but happens to defuse early because of his enormous power.

[Gohan Zero]

Looking at the SSJ3 it is almost as if the saiyan who uses it is try to force there body to go into an Oozaru without a moon.

That could support the fact that SSJ3 is not natural.

[Darkprince410]

Super Saiya-jin 4 Gojiita remained in his fused state for only ten minutes, well short of the thirty minute mark of the normal fusion duration. If it were only cut down by 3 minutes, I doubt that anyone would have paid much attention to it, let alone make a huge deal about it (like how Bejiita did).

It is a possibility though, based on the formula that is used to determine a Super Saiya-jin 4's battle power, that an Ssj3 can indeed be stronger than an Ssj4. The Ssj4 form is shown to be little more than a compressed and controlled Super Saiya-jin Oozaru, so in short an Ssj4 would be ten times the strength of the Saiya-jin's Ssj1 form (since the Oozaru form is more or less accepted as being a ten fold increase from the Saiya-jin's base form)

Given the relatively low boosts from base form to Ssj during the Buu Saga (not to mention Rirudo Shogun's comment in GT that the Ssj transformation only doubled Gokuu's strength), towards the end of Z and into GT, the Ssj4 form could simply be in the range of a 20-30x base increase. Now while we don't know the exact increase between base to Ssj3, it's not unlikely in Gokuu's case that his Ssj3 form is at least 30 times stronger than his base form, if not moreso.

[BurningVegeta]

You saying Super Saiyan 3 is unnatural supports my thoery that no Super Saiyan forms after Super Saiyan is narural excludint Super Saiyan 4. As all they do is waste energy, and increase the users base power.

Originally Posted by burningvegeta

Listen it makes perfect sense for Dragonball GT puposes Super Sayain 4 should be the last Super Saiyan form the rest of them act like catalysts as all you need is Oozaru and a super Saiyan to make it, the other transfomations are not needed. Look lets use Goku as an example:

Base Goku + Tail = Oozaru
Base Goku + Super Saiyan Transformation = Super Saiyan Goku

Super Saiyan Goku + Oozaru = Golden Oozaru + Control = SSj4 (which should be a Super Saiyan 3, without useless transformations)

-But instead it works like this:
Base Goku + Super Saiyan Transformations 'SSj2,SSj3' (catalysts for producing more power)= Power Up Base = Stronger Base Goku + Golden Oozaru + Control = SSj4 (more powerful)

[ANB]

Could you explain the theory in detail...?

And lol, I guess SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ4 Gogeta based on their time-limits. Not even Base Kid Goku could handle a monster like that...but Old Kuririn pwns them all!

[Senzu_Bean]

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

The Ssj4 form is shown to be little more than a compressed and controlled Super Saiya-jin Oozaru, so in short an Ssj4 would be ten times the strength of the Saiya-jin's Ssj1 form (since the Oozaru form is more or less accepted as being a ten fold increase from the Saiya-jin's base form)

Not by me. In my view SSj Oozaru would increased the power from SSj3 form and not the power from SSj. Well it's ridiculous think SSj3 is more powerful than SSj4 since we saw against Bebi how SSj3 and SSj4 bear.

[ANB]

^Good point about the Super Bebi fight.

I think Golden Oozaroo increases by like 25 (Half of the SSJ muliplyer; >>> regular Oozaroo muliplyer). I tend to think of it as the "Super" form of Oozaroo. "Controling" it takes little effort for normal (as in: violent) Saiyajins. But when you do I guess it's increase (SSJ4) is equal to that of the difference between SSJ and MSSJ.

Keep in mind Goku did not instantly become powerful through mastery. He trained in the form. How large the increase is remains open to debate, but likely superior to Transcended Super Saiyajin.

Well it's ridiculous think SSj3 is more powerful than SSj4

Well...it all depends on the muliplyers. And mostly I was pointing out how SSJ4 is natural wheras SSJ3 is extremely unnatural and fatigue-inducing. Also, you can't ignore the plot-hole of Gotenks cutting the fusion down to 5 minutes while Gogeta was ten. Toei probably didn't mean it; they were just trying to make him look cool (and phaild).

[Senzu_Bean]

SSj4 is a more stable form than SSj3. It almost doesn't consume energy since Goku used it to transport people to Planet Tsufuru although it consumes seeing by the fusion and Vegeta returns to base when facing Omega Shenron. SSj4 form is to be somewhat a natural state of Saiyan-jin thus the little consume of energy.