Duo

Back in the day, I used to write Editorials on trivial matters in Dragonball Z a fair bit. While I think pretty much all of them were wastes of my attention and have no standing being referenced for anything, this past summer I did write one that I think is quite good. I've posted it here once before, but didn't give it a thread all it's own. I'd like to get a discussion going on it, so here goes.

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In the English-speaking fan communities of the Dragonball universe, there are several misconceptions ranging from errors present in the FUNimation dub to factual contradictions in the Japanese Anime, along with various internet-spread misconceptions. Some of these misconceptions spawn from various takes on the Dragonball Z Movies, which count to 13. Commonly, the disagreement is over whether or not said movies fit into the main Dragonball Z storyline. Of course, most of them cannot do such, and among those that don't there are two movies which hold the greatest number of mysteries and confliction between fans.

It is my belief that I have found the answers to understanding these Movies and making the most sense their place in the overall Dragonball Z universe. While these movies are not capable of co-existing with the core Dragonball Z storyline, each one bases it's character designs and strength levels on a certain point in the story. You could say they "extract" the characters as they are at a certain point and place them in an alternate plot-line. For the sake of argument, let's say that the writers of the movies take the characters from 3 months before the Movie premiers in Japan. In the case of Movie 8, there are two viewpoints taken - before the warriors entered the Room of Spirit and Time, or after they exit it. This is usually abbreviated to "Pre-RoSaT" and "Post-RoSaT".

The reason for this is, of course, the fact that there are details about the characters that support both sides almost evenly. Son Goku and his child, Gohan, were both in a state of everlasting Super Saiyan after exiting the Chamber, but not so during the movie. On the other side of the coin, Trunks hair cut is the same as when he exited the Room of Spirit and Time. On top of that, the fact that Gohan can go Super Saiyan at all means he's been in the Room. The latter would also support the notion that Movie 8 occurred in the 9 days prior to the Cell Game. However, neither of these notions are true and present multiple conflicts within themselves. The idea that the movie has to be either "Pre-RoSaT" or "Post-RoSaT" is a misguided notion. The stretch of time in the series in which one character or another is in the Room of Spirit and Time lasts several months by the Japanese run of the Anime and the serialization of the Manga. To think the writers would wait to make sure everyone was out of the Chamber is, well, ridiculous.

When, exactly, would the characters have been "pulled" from then? Movie 8 was released in March of 1993. Three months before that would be December of 1992. The first episode that aired in that month was Episode 167, in which Cell announces the Cell Game. This is one episode before Goku and Gohan re-emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time. The Movie began production before Gohan and Goku had finished their training, and had certainly not yet shown what kind of power they had in this "full power" state. Would this not mean that the characters are based off of the period of time in which Trunks and Vegeta are fighting Cell? We actually see Goku and Gohan during this fight, training in the Room of Spirit and Time. In the Manga, the last time we see them training, Gohan has just had his hair cut and can turn Super Saiyan. His hair length is suspiciously similar to how it looks in Movie 8. His bangs are shorter than in the Cell Game and the back has little spiking. Without doubt, the length of Gohan's hair in Movie 8 is closer to when we see him in the Room of Spirit and Time then it is in the Cell Game.

"Mid-RoSaT". The characters were extracted from the point in time in which Goku and Gohan were still training in the Room of Spirit and Time. This would be about the point in which Goku shows his ability to tap into the 2nd and 3rd type Super Saiyan transformations. They've been training enough to increase their power hugely, but not yet begun the regimen to relax themselves while transformed and hold the state all the time. The way the battles play out in the movie enforce this, because if the movie was "Post-RoSaT", there would be a huge gap between every protagonist fighter, but they all seem to be on relatively equal footing. Also, if Gohan had completed his training, he would be on the tip of being able to go past the Super Saiyan. However, despite the circumstances and how dire they become, there is no such hint at this. If he was capable, Goku would have been pushing for that instead of the odd way he goes about besting Broli. This means Gohan was not yet ready to fully tap his true Super Saiyan abilities.

Movie 10, as well, enforces this. When Gohan is fighting Broli, he notes to himself that his opponent is every bit as strong as before, and then mentions that he himself has powered up considerably since then. If Gohan had finished his training in the Room of Spirit and Time, there would be something horribly wrong with this statement, because Gohan had lost a large amount of power during the 7 years after the Cell Game. On top of that, when Gohan goes Super Saiyan, he holds out against Broli better than anyone did during Movie 8, proving that he himself had not only become stronger since then, but was greater than where everyone else was at the point of movie 8.

Some may argue that Gohan only said this because he was using Super Saiyan level 2 against Broli - but he, in fact, was not. While the physical changes in Gohan between Level 1 and 2 are basically non-existent, there are many things to be considered on this. Although the appearance of lightning in the aura is not fully consistent in the Anime when it comes to Super Saiyan 2, at this point we had only seen the stage 3 times (movies included) and each time it was obviously shown and present. The budget a movie operates on is greater that an episode of the series, so they would have no reason not to include it. On top of that, we had not yet seen whether or not Gohan was even capable of accessing this stage anymore in the series. 3 months prior to the movie, the Anime was only an episode or two into the 25th Tenka'ichi Budokai. Enforcing this further is the fact we had never seen a Saiyan skip straight to this stage from normal, and did not see this sort of thing happen until Goku confronts the fat Majin Boo, which, in the Anime, was nine months after the movie premiered.

With all of these points in mind, how can it be otherwise that Movie 8 occurred before Goku and Gohan finished their training? Is there something ridiculous about this notion I am not aware of? If one can make sense of the placement of Movie 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 11, and 12, then feel free to correct me. This also makes it a lot easier to try and figure out where Broli might stand against other villains in the series, but that's another discussion for another day. I hope I have been able to lay things out in an intelligent way and show that the common viewpoints on these movies are in error. Thank you for reading.

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"Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in your beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken."

warcrack

The article was very well written; the explanations were clear and consice, and it was easy to see your main argument. I think that on its own it could convince many people that Goku and Gohan were "mid-ROSAT" in Movie 8.

You said that December 1992 marked the release of Episode 167. When was Episode 168 released, along with its corresponding manga chapter?

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Duo

Each chapter and episode were released weekly, thus...

But if you want to check my sources, I wouldn't be bothered.

Episode Air Dates

Manga Information

Movie Information

__________________
"Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in your beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken."

Senzu_Bean

Didn't you already made a thread with this?

Duo

Oh, you mean like I pointed out in my stinkin' post?

I'm disappointed. You don't have anything to say about the Editorial.

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"Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in your beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken."

Senzu_Bean

My bad! Well, I agree with your theory about them be mid-rosat. The only point that contradicts it, is the movie: the Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jins. Although I don't put this at the same canon (or non-canon) level of the other movies.

I only don't agree about Gohan be a SSj. In my view he is a SSj2:
- Well, Vegeta was probably a SSj2 in Movie 12 and 13 and he also lacks lighting;
- Movie 6 also was released during Cyborg arc and Dende was already Earth's protector, when in Manga, he only came to Earth in Cell Games arc;
- Gohan skip SSj form in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. He goes directly trough SSj2. Also, how Gohan transform in Movie 10, it doesn't seem a MSSj transformation. Just see how long it takes to transform... and the eyes changing colour just like in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai (Goku also shows this when facing Cyborg #19, but he wasn't a MSSj back then, like Gohan was in Movie 10).

warcrack

Even though the idea of Gohan and Goku being post-ROSAT is supported by Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, said story was created for a videogame, which would make it a very low level of canon for Dragonball, even though Toei was involved in its production.

Basically, Dragonball Gaiden should be dismissed when talking about Movie 8 and Movie 10.

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Vizard

Now that I think it, the theory is actually good. It actually makes sense. I always thought there were Post RoSaT or Pre RoSaT but now that I think it carefully, it could be true. I knew there was something "wrong" with those movies and I kept thinking that movie 8 was set in an alternative timeline if Gohan reached Super Saiyan before entering it and that they were Per RoSaT.

Anyway, this does make more sense...

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Deep Thought

That was a really great, well-written theory, and I could find little wrong with it. Good job.

Evil Vegeta

That was a pretty good editorial, Duo. I also couldn't find anything that can be questioned in it.

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Thanks to Sphinx's badass skills. Yay.