Broli threads piss me off

[Prince Vegeta]

Originally Posted by BrolytheLSSJ

Fuck them all and any shitheads who think hes weak

You want to know why people specifically dislike Broly fanboys? It's not just that they're misguided and far less intelligent than most other fanboys, but also that they resort to spamming like you just did feeling an attack on Broly like an attack on them. I can't say that all Broly fanboys are misguided but I can say that most are.

[Broly]

Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

You want to know why people specifically dislike Broly fanboys? It's not just that they're misguided and far less intelligent than most other fanboys, but also that they resort to spamming like you just did feeling an attack on Broly like an attack on them. I can't say that all Broly fanboys are misguided but I can say that most are.

What BrolytheLSSj is trying to say about Broly's power is much more on-track than what the Broly fanboys are saying. Now we have evidence for our belief on Broly's power, effin evidence, key hints, and anything else we can use to fit our points.

[Prince Vegeta]

Originally Posted by Broly

What BrolytheLSSj is trying to say about Broly's power is much more on-track than what the Broly fanboys are saying. Now we have evidence for our belief on Broly's power, effin evidence, key hints, and anything else we can use to fit our points.

Heres the thing; you don't. The Broly being weaker side has far better arguments and counter arguments to all of your arguments.

[SSJ4 Vegito]

Well to be fair Broly has never been one to make Baseless assumptions he does provide plenty of facts. He does give some pretty good arguments in the debates I've been in. Although I don't agree with them, he's still just fine. However I do agree that Broly Fanboys can be annoying.

[Broly The LSSJ]

Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

You want to know why people specifically dislike Broly fanboys? It's not just that they're misguided and far less intelligent than most other fanboys, but also that they resort to spamming like you just did feeling an attack on Broly like an attack on them. I can't say that all Broly fanboys are misguided but I can say that most are.

Dude, youre full of it. Everytime I enter a debate, I give evidence to back up my points. The one time it looks like I'm "spamming", you have to come along and point it out when part of me was kidding around, hence that laughing picture. I'm no fanboy, you're just biased against Broly and say nothing of significance. Just "Oh I fail cause I think Broly at best = Perfect Cell Suppressed"

Originally Posted by Broly

What BrolytheLSSj is trying to say about Broly's power is much more on-track than what the Broly fanboys are saying. Now we have evidence for our belief on Broly's power, effin evidence, key hints, and anything else we can use to fit our points.

Exactly.

[Broly]

Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

Heres the thing; you don't. The Broly being weaker side has far better arguments and counter arguments to all of your arguments.

Oh I don't, huh? What exactly on what I've posted out there many-a-time do you have a direct objection about? Let's hear your outcry on this.

[Prince Vegeta]

Originally Posted by Broly

Oh I don't, huh? What exactly on what I've posted out there many-a-time do you have a direct objection about? Let's hear your outcry on this.

Let's see here well for one its quite obvious that Gohan was simply a SSJ in movie 10 (one has to be ignorant to deny this). Furthermore for Broly to have had the advantage he did over Gohan does not require him to be multiple times stronger, 1.3x is suffice. Secondly in movie 8, Goku and Gohan were NOT FPSSJ. How do I know exactly? Well the fact that Piccolo in that movie was arguably doing as good (if not better than Gohan). If Gohan was anywhere close to a FPSSJ there would be no way in hell for his and Piccolo's power to appear as close as it did. Furthermore Goku (while stronger than the rest) was approximately in the same league as Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo. He was stronger (but not nearly enough to indicate that he was a FPSSJ). Therefore its clear that none of the saiyans in that movie were stronger than "normal" SSJ's and while you may argue that Trunks appeared to be an USSJ, your argument would fall short primarily because we know that the movies do not follow a general consensus of power levels (based on the manga). The most proficient example of this is how in movie 13, SSJ3 Goku is FAR stronger than Mystic Gohan. In fact Mystic Gohan was perhaps closer to SSJ Goku if anything. This obviously shows that no matter what form the characters are in, it does not necesserily reflect their true power (as they would be in the manga) as the powers in the movies are quite a bit distorted. Thus even if Trunks was an USSJ in movie 8 (as an example) it would not necesserily mean that he would be as strong as his manga counterpart and in this case he's not because if he was, then there would be no possible way for Piccolo to be close to him in power. All in all you can look at it two ways: either Goku and Gohan were FPSSSJ's and Vegeta and Trunks were USSJ, despite being in the same league as Piccolo OR that the respective saiyans were merely normal SSJ's. Either way, their powerlevels would be nowhere near the manga counterparts of USSJ's and FPSSJ's.

And Brolythelssj, you just added to my point.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

All in all you can look at it two ways: either Goku and Gohan were FPSSSJ's and Vegeta and Trunks were USSJ, despite being in the same league as Piccolo OR that the respective saiyans were merely normal SSJ's. Either way, their powerlevels would be nowhere near the manga counterparts of USSJ's and FPSSJ'S

Unfortunately, that is what it all boils down to. I do agree in a sense that the character's in Movie 8 fall WAY short of their relative powers shown in the manga (even though I believe the zet-senshi were just SSJ's).

[Broly]

Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

Let's see here well for one its quite obvious that Gohan was simply a SSJ in movie 10 (one has to be ignorant to deny this). Furthermore for Broly to have had the advantage he did over Gohan does not require him to be multiple times stronger, 1.3x is suffice. Secondly in movie 8, Goku and Gohan were NOT FPSSJ. How do I know exactly? Well the fact that Piccolo in that movie was arguably doing as good (if not better than Gohan). If Gohan was anywhere close to a FPSSJ there would be no way in hell for his and Piccolo's power to appear as close as it did. Furthermore Goku (while stronger than the rest) was approximately in the same league as Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo. He was stronger (but not nearly enough to indicate that he was a FPSSJ). Therefore its clear that none of the saiyans in that movie were stronger than "normal" SSJ's and while you may argue that Trunks appeared to be an USSJ, your argument would fall short primarily because we know that the movies do not follow a general consensus of power levels (based on the manga). The most proficient example of this is how in movie 13, SSJ3 Goku is FAR stronger than Mystic Gohan. In fact Mystic Gohan was perhaps closer to SSJ Goku if anything. This obviously shows that no matter what form the characters are in, it does not necesserily reflect their true power (as they would be in the manga) as the powers in the movies are quite a bit distorted. Thus even if Trunks was an USSJ in movie 8 (as an example) it would not necesserily mean that he would be as strong as his manga counterpart and in this case he's not because if he was, then there would be no possible way for Piccolo to be close to him in power. All in all you can look at it two ways: either Goku and Gohan were FPSSSJ's and Vegeta and Trunks were USSJ, despite being in the same league as Piccolo OR that the respective saiyans were merely normal SSJ's. Either way, their powerlevels would be nowhere near the manga counterparts of USSJ's and FPSSJ's.

And Brolythelssj, you just added to my point.

To somebody who would merely accept his appearance as an SSj in Movie 10, to them he is only SSj. And that's what I used to think. But looking at the movies over and over again have opened my eyes to a different opinion. Just because he had no sparks doesn't directly mean he was MSSj. Movies 12 and 13 show Goku clearly as an SSj2, yet they do not add the sparks. And we can tell this by his hair. If Toei did it in Movies 12 and 13 there's really nothing saying they couldn't possibly have done the same in Movie 10, in fact, the opposite of that seems much more likely to me. Now I agree with you when you say Broly can only be determined to be 1.33x Gohan's power in the very least. But, that, in my opinion, would put Broly around SSj2 Kid Gohan.

While it's true that the Zet Senshi looked to be more on an equal footing of power, this is not the case. Broly defeated both Gohan and Vegeta in one attack, yet he apparently held back on Piccolo, Trunks, and Goku more. Is there any preferance to the extremety of his attacks? Very possibly so, taken this prospect into account. Yes, the Movies don't usually add certain factors of the storyline into the plot, but what's Trunks' transformation have to do with SSj3 Goku in Movie 13? I mean, just because they made Goku an uber-god in Movie 13, surpassing even the limits and power of Gohan and Gotenks not 2 years after Chibi Buu's defeat? Incredibly impossible. Plain and simply, the script writers of that movie just wanted Goku to come out on top, just like Movie 8. Either Super Dragon Fist multiplies your power A WHOLE LOT, or they messed up, or they're Goku lovers. Pick your choice. I think they're Goku lovers. My interpretation, as I've mentioned before, on Trunks' power and state in Movie 8 is based on observation. I really don't see a reason why he couldn't have been at that level of power.

[SS2 Vegeto]

I can't really trust Toei's consistency with the differences in hair when they can't even get right the far more tell-tale signs such as lightning and the appearance of the aura. Just throwing that out there.

[LegendarySSJ7]

Originally Posted by Broly

To somebody who would merely accept his appearance as an SSj in Movie 10, to them he is only SSj. And that's what I used to think. But looking at the movies over and over again have opened my eyes to a different opinion. Just because he had no sparks doesn't directly mean he was MSSj. Movies 12 and 13 show Goku clearly as an SSj2, yet they do not add the sparks. And we can tell this by his hair. If Toei did it in Movies 12 and 13 there's really nothing saying they couldn't possibly have done the same in Movie 10, in fact, the opposite of that seems much more likely to me.

I don't contest TOEI's blithe inconsistency. But whether Vegeta was accessing SSj 2 or not in Movie 13 and 12... that ranges in interpretation. He managed to phase Janemba somehow, so I think even despite the lack of lightning dancing around his aura, Janemba was just hamming it up, but say Vegeta was accessing SSj 2 wasn't stretching things by far. As for Movie 13, it has too many plotholes for me to even further the assertion. As for Gohan in Movie 12... his hair is the same across all three forms and no bolts of lightning were over his aura, so even outside of asserting attitude and conversion of power to the fullest... I'd say that making him SSj 2 would make him everyone disproportionately strong (even vaccously so). Then again, Broli's appearances tend to be brief enough that he feels like a cameo appearance (much like the end of the DBZ series itself).

Originally Posted by Broly

Now I agree with you when you say Broly can only be determined to be 1.33x Gohan's power in the very least. But, that, in my opinion, would put Broly around SSj2 Kid Gohan.

I'd say that's even excessive for Movie 10 Broli, but to each his own. Then again, I feel Broli was only accessing SSj Type 3 and not this erroneous "Legendary Super Saiyan form" TOEI labeled or whatever, but again, to each his own.

Originally Posted by Broly

While it's true that the Zet Senshi looked to be more on an equal footing of power, this is not the case. Broly defeated both Gohan and Vegeta in one attack, yet he apparently held back on Piccolo, Trunks, and Goku more. Is there any preferance to the extremety of his attacks? Very possibly so, taken this prospect into account. Yes, the Movies don't usually add certain factors of the storyline into the plot, but what's Trunks' transformation have to do with SSj3 Goku in Movie 13? I mean, just because they made Goku an uber-god in Movie 13, surpassing even the limits and power of Gohan and Gotenks not 2 years after Chibi Buu's defeat? Incredibly impossible. Plain and simply, the script writers of that movie just wanted Goku to come out on top, just like Movie 8. Either Super Dragon Fist multiplies your power A WHOLE LOT, or they messed up, or they're Goku lovers. Pick your choice. I think they're Goku lovers. My interpretation, as I've mentioned before, on Trunks' power and state in Movie 8 is based on observation. I really don't see a reason why he couldn't have been at that level of power.

I also wouldn't go as far as to say that anyone was MSS in Movie 8. As for Trunks' transformation... SSj Type 3, you mean? Well, both SSj 3 and SSj Type 3 glancingly show the long-term effects of an extension of SS-sized power that's inherently ineffectual (without equalization) in speed and power. But if I've observed anything over the years, it's that no one in DBZ quite developers alongside one to another in sheer strength; there's only one number one victor (thus denoting the fatal flaw of the series: superfluous power growth equals off no room for growth).

And yes, TOEI are of the opinion that Goku is apparently some sort of invincible being of sorts, but I don't think they felt the same about anyone else.... I don't see how Broli could be as strong as the breakthroughs that are the pinnacle of the series (that we only see later on, as a response to other threats, or that are pinnacles of select SSj forms).

[Prince Vegeta]

Originally Posted by Broly

While it's true that the Zet Senshi looked to be more on an equal footing of power, this is not the case. Broly defeated both Gohan and Vegeta in one attack, yet he apparently held back on Piccolo, Trunks, and Goku more. Is there any preferance to the extremety of his attacks? Very possibly so, taken this prospect into account. Yes, the Movies don't usually add certain factors of the storyline into the plot, but what's Trunks' transformation have to do with SSj3 Goku in Movie 13? I mean, just because they made Goku an uber-god in Movie 13, surpassing even the limits and power of Gohan and Gotenks not 2 years after Chibi Buu's defeat? Incredibly impossible. Plain and simply, the script writers of that movie just wanted Goku to come out on top, just like Movie 8. Either Super Dragon Fist multiplies your power A WHOLE LOT, or they messed up, or they're Goku lovers.

In movie 13, it wasn't just Goku who's power was far off from where it should be. SSJ3 Gotenks was some how stronger than Mystic Gohan (by quite a bit actually). This leads us to believe that power levels in the movies as a whole are not kept consistent with the manga. Movie 13 is proof that Toei do not assign manga based powerlevels to the characters given their forms. As an example, there's no way SSJ3 Goku could be that strong. Also there's no way USSJ Trunks or MSSJ Gohan are on the same level as Piccolo, BUT that's how Toei made it. And to your other point, no matter how strong Broly is, there is no way for us to not notice the gap between Piccolo and MSSJ Gohan. Therefore we can assume that their powers were close in the movie. Either that or Gohan, Trunks, Goku and Vegeta were normal SSJ's (which I choose to believe). But even if they weren't normal SSJ's in movie 8, their powerlevels show otherwise.

For the rest of your post, my views pretty much align with what LegendarySSJ7 had to say.

[yellowsky]

haha, I've never undesrtood that guy.XD
All you hear him saying is.."kakarot"..>__>. What does he have against Goku? Somekind fo supersition about saioyans born on the same day are naturally enemies? ^^;;
Still, I'm glad Vic doesn't visit this forum, otherwise, he's going to be very pissed off.
[btw: Vic=Brolly's VA].

[maxoutedssj4]

LSSj Broly, at his absolute best is around Super Perfect Cell's power level, meaning he is still below SSj2 Kid Gohan's power level. Although.I'd placed both Super Perfect Cell and Broly above the SSj2 Gohan(Buu Saga). I know you guys want to know where I got my inference from so I'll start off saying that I believe that Movie 8 is Post Rosat.

In Movie 10, I also believe Gohan was indeed an SSJ2. The way Broly defeated him, and the way Gohan broke Broly's grip and I'd say he is in the gap between SSj2 Gohan and SSj2 Goku/Vegeta.

My explantation of saying he is on par with SPC and he is between SSj2 kid Gohan and SSj2 GOku/ Vegeta is that when Super Pefect Cell injured Gohan with a simple ki blast, that made me to consider he is around close to SSj2 power level. If Super Perfect Cell fought Gohan(buu arc) the same outcome and damage that Broly displayed on Gohan, Cell could do.

[Broly]

Originally Posted by LegendarySSJ7

I don't contest TOEI's blithe inconsistency. But whether Vegeta was accessing SSj 2 or not in Movie 13 and 12... that ranges in interpretation. He managed to phase Janemba somehow, so I think even despite the lack of lightning dancing around his aura, Janemba was just hamming it up, but say Vegeta was accessing SSj 2 wasn't stretching things by far. As for Movie 13, it has too many plotholes for me to even further the assertion. As for Gohan in Movie 12... his hair is the same across all three forms and no bolts of lightning were over his aura, so even outside of asserting attitude and conversion of power to the fullest... I'd say that making him SSj 2 would make him everyone disproportionately strong (even vaccously so). Then again, Broli's appearances tend to be brief enough that he feels like a cameo appearance (much like the end of the DBZ series itself).

I'd say that's even excessive for Movie 10 Broli, but to each his own. Then again, I feel Broli was only accessing SSj Type 3 and not this erroneous "Legendary Super Saiyan form" TOEI labeled or whatever, but again, to each his own.

I also wouldn't go as far as to say that anyone was MSS in Movie 8. As for Trunks' transformation... SSj Type 3, you mean? Well, both SSj 3 and SSj Type 3 glancingly show the long-term effects of an extension of SS-sized power that's inherently ineffectual (without equalization) in speed and power. But if I've observed anything over the years, it's that no one in DBZ quite developers alongside one to another in sheer strength; there's only one number one victor (thus denoting the fatal flaw of the series: superfluous power growth equals off no room for growth).

And yes, TOEI are of the opinion that Goku is apparently some sort of invincible being of sorts, but I don't think they felt the same about anyone else.... I don't see how Broli could be as strong as the breakthroughs that are the pinnacle of the series (that we only see later on, as a response to other threats, or that are pinnacles of select SSj forms).

There is a difference in Gohan's hair from the Saiyaman Arc to when he transforms in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. Either his hair changed a bit, or Toriyama made a mistake. Nothing here can either be proven or disproven I think.

I highly disagree on the notion that Broly was accessing a Grade 3 state. His ultimate state is partially similar to the Grade 3, but it's at the same time vastly different. The way he transformed for one, was totally off-the-wall. His body cracked like a shell, revealing his ultimate state from within, it seemed. Transforming into Grade 3 is much more simplistic in that one merely bulks up. Broly seems to get an entirely new body during his. This is just one of the major differences.

I meant that Trunks was Grade 2 in Movie 8.

And I really don't see how Broly couldn't be as strong as an SSj2, which is not even close to the pinnacle of power in DBZ, at least not in the context or aspect your referring.

Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

In movie 13, it wasn't just Goku who's power was far off from where it should be. SSJ3 Gotenks was some how stronger than Mystic Gohan (by quite a bit actually). This leads us to believe that power levels in the movies as a whole are not kept consistent with the manga. Movie 13 is proof that Toei do not assign manga based powerlevels to the characters given their forms. As an example, there's no way SSJ3 Goku could be that strong. Also there's no way USSJ Trunks or MSSJ Gohan are on the same level as Piccolo, BUT that's how Toei made it. And to your other point, no matter how strong Broly is, there is no way for us to not notice the gap between Piccolo and MSSJ Gohan. Therefore we can assume that their powers were close in the movie. Either that or Gohan, Trunks, Goku and Vegeta were normal SSJ's (which I choose to believe). But even if they weren't normal SSJ's in movie 8, their powerlevels show otherwise.

For the rest of your post, my views pretty much align with what LegendarySSJ7 had to say.

So your basing this off Movie logic alone? If we see that one character seems to be doing fairly well enough to keep up with a stronger one, than in that movie, they're equal, and thus in this case, Mid-RoSaT? I've already told you, that the only reason why Piccolo is of any equal footing with the Zet Senshi is because he too must have been intended as Post-RoSaT for the movie. And the reason why he's shown as a being of similar power status to say maybe one as Goku, is because of Broly's overwhelming superiority. It's the same as stuffing Freeza in with the skirmish between Tien, Yamcha, Zangya, and Bido. He would've been cast aside just as easily.