Gangsta SabZ

Yeah, you could use TOEI in this. But I'm thinking differently. Had Akira Toriyama made Goku and Vegeta fuse, would the story be different, without involving movie 12.

I'd say in Akira's eyes, Gogeta = Vegetto in terms of power. Yeeeaaah.

Mystic_Gohan

You're only saying that cause you favor him.

And TOEI was the one who created Gogeta, not Toriyama.

Gangsta SabZ

Ha, I do favour him.

Yeah I know TOEI created him, and clearly you misunderstood my post. Gogeta is still possible in Toriyama's Dragonball universe, so I'm just working on the cannon statement about the effectiveness or superiorority of potarra.

Basically, there's no solid proof that Vejito > Gogeta in power. In a fight, Vejito wins or it ends a draw (he lasts forever). But that doesn't measure power.

I like to think they're equal because there's nothing to convince me they're not except for a little potential hint with various meanings.

Madness

Yes there is actually. Old Kai states that the Potara fusion is superior to the standard fusion dance. If that isn't saying it's better I don't know what is.

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Gangsta SabZ

"little potential hint with various meanings"

I think superior falls under that. Meaning... superior in what sense?

Majuub

Kibitoshin saw the power of the fusion dance, after seeing Vegeto for the first time he said: Wow! I didn't know the power of the potaras was so great. Why would he said that if they were as powerful as the fusion dance. It points out the potaras have more power than any form of fusion. Again, superior, more powerful, works better was most likely a way to tell us that Vegeto>Gogeta. Some of us tends to ignore it since they favor one over the other but we musn't take the meaning to the next level. If I say, Heatley is superior to Koivu, you'll think I'm saying Heatley is a better hockey player than Koivu. If I say Vegeto is superior to Gogeta the first thing you'll have in mind is Vegeto is stronger than Gogeta. There is no need to conclude such complex logic behind such a simple fact.

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Gangsta SabZ

I'm just extending the meaning logically, in relation to the situation. Superior because it's easier to perform or because it's eternal or even maybe because Vejito is stronger. But there isn't a solid fact.

Kibitoshin had never really seen a fusion technique output except Gotenks, who he saw through a crystal ball. Plus, it's hard to judge between two fusions from two pairs of completely different powers.

Madness

But the power increase would be apparent and obvious to anyone watching. Say the fusion dnce increased the power by 1500% and the Potara increased power by 3000%. The difference would be apparent.

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Majuub

Kibitoshin can't think, he's not real, it's wrong to assume he didn't really see a fusion since there are 2 kinds of fusion. If Kibitoshin states something such as this, then the author gave us that, it's the author who writes the manga, not Kibitoshin who thinks. Even if he saw the fusion through a crystal ball, he still knew what it was like and he even tested the potara fusion himself. He perfectly knew what the fusion was all about. We don't know how much but we do know Vegeto is stronger than Gogeta.

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Gangsta SabZ

Doesn't matter if Kibitoshin thinks or the author writes, it's the same thing. The statement does not directly tell us that Vejito's power > Gogeta. It says the potarra fusion is superior to the fusion dance. Although he may be stronger, that statement does not prove it. And there's nothing about how much Kibitoshin knew about the fusion dance.

Majuub

The statement he made: I didn't know the potara was so great is what tells us the potara fusion is greater. Since Kibiotshin knows everything about the fusion(What Kibitoshin knows about the fusion, the author knows it and vice versa.) It just implies that the potaras have a greater power than the other kind of fusion he saw first.

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Gangsta SabZ

Well, the statement he made said nothing about being more "powerful". Plus, Akira doesn't always reflect his views using his characters. He simply thinks of the characters personality. As far as I saw, there was nothing said about the potarra OUTPUT being stronger than the fusion dance one. Also, Kibitoshin had no way to compare, and was never stated to have witnessed a fusion dance with his own eyes.

Most of your arguement is speculation after the statement. Fact is that Elder Kai comments on a higher superiority of potarra to the base that was never mentioned. He never said how it was superior, thus there's no solid proof saying Vejito > Gogeta. Though it's still possible.

Mystic_Gohan

So basically what are you trying to say?

That Gogeta is equal to Vegetto or that he is stronger?

When it comes down to it though, Gogeta is not a canon character, and the Potara fusion is stated to have an advantage over the fusion dance.

Majuub

That's no speculations, to say Kibitoshin didn't see the fusion dance with his own eyes is wrong, if he said something about it and nothing suggest he is wrong, then there is no reason to assume he was wrong other than a biased opinion. The author would just fool everyone by making such statements. When it comes down to something that simple, it was clear, if the author was to put his actual thoughts down on paper, then he would use someone to interprete his thoughts. There is no reason to think Kibitoshin doesn,t know the power of the dance even when he saw it with his own eyes. There is really no reason to speculate or to don't accept such simple facts. To say Kibitoshin doesn't know the fusion dance is just completely wrong. There is nothing to suggest he doesn't know the dance and if he was to really know nothing about the dance, then he wouldn't have stated such a thing just to fool the readers.

The statement implies the fusion dance is stronger thn the potaras since they said they didn't know the power of the earrings was so great, it means it an unexpected power. What you're making is pure speculation based on no facts.

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Gangsta SabZ

You still don't get it.

I'm not saying Gogeta is equal to Vejito or that Kibitoshin never saw the fusion dance pre the events in the buu saga. What I'm saying is that Akira gave us statements which do not fully justify the difference in power between Vejito and Gogeta. You speculate that Elder Kai means "fusion output more powerful" when he says that potarra is "superior" or "more effective" (which could mean that the fusion lasts forever and it's easier to use etc). You speculate that Kibitoshin had previously seen the fusion dance because there was no record of him not seeing it.

So no, there's no way of knowing if Vejito > Gogeta unless Kibitoshin actually saw Gogeta or was stated to have known the power increase of the dance, or if the statement made on the power of the potarra was; "The potarra will make the fusion warrior much more powerful than if you did the dance!" and "Wow, I didn't know he'd be so powerful... is the power of potarra THIS much better than the dance?!"