Zer0

End of Soul Society Arc, Shikai. No Bankai or Hollow Interference.

Go?

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SS2 Vegeto

Well, judging by Byakuya's attitude towards him, even though he's quite arrogant, he probably had the edge using his shikai to attack - then again, Ichigo wasn't really straining himself or having a hard time before that point either, since he was fighting an unreleased Byakuya, so he may not have had that much to go by..and although he would have realized the opponent didn't seem to be fully exerting himself, not only because it should have been fairly clear after a while of fighting him, but..because Ichigo said it himself before he released, I doubt he would have fully grasped exactly where in was, as compared to him, but the fact remains, he appeared rather certain that he could handle the situation at shikai. After Ichigo used getsuga tenshou, however..he was able to blow away the thousand blades set to attack him, and Byakuya was narrowly able to dodge. Ichigo then insisted that Byakuya use his bankai, and attempted to challenge it at shikai, and although Ichigo gave himself a slap on the hand afterwards for even..considering that he might be able to do anything against bankai with shikai, it shows that he was very confident in his ability. So, I believe that should answer the question.

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Tuna2

Ichigo. If you think about it, Ichigo was pretty much able to beat Byakuya's release with a single blow from Getsuga. This shocked Byakuya enough into forcing him into Bankai. Not to mention the fact that Ichigo was able to hold off Byakuya's Bankai for a time in his Shikai, even if only for a few moments. I also believe Byakuya's Bankai would give him a higher increase since he had mastered it for a longer period of time.

Byakuya=1.5x10(Highest increase to a Bankai according to Yourichi)
Ichigo=3x5(lowest increase to a Bankai according to Yourichi)
Byakuya(Bankai)=Ichigo(Bankai)

Anyways, that's my say on the matter

JAIF

If Ichigo with an untrained Bankai was vastly superior to Byakuya with a first-stage fully-trained bankai, considering that the multipliers are rather solid, wouldn't that imply that Ichigo was stronger than Byakuya in shikai as well?

The biggest question is, who is stronger now?

Majuub

If Byakuya managed to surpass Hollow Ichigo I would kill myself.

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Final Ultima

Who is stronger Now is the question!!

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Evil Dark Knight

While Ichigo may have the Strength factor in his favour, Byakuya has the Speed advantage.

• Though it looks normal; all the abilities from Ichigo's Bankai are compressed into the small blade and it's highest ability is super-human speed. As stated by Byakuya, (A Bankai) Its power and form are often beyond that of a normal weapon. Thus, in order to become capable to controling it completely . . . One needs to train at least 10 years with Bankai. Ichigo's Bankai retains the strength he had in his Shikai state and drastically increases his speed. Ichigo required no training in order to master his Bankai.
• "Getsuga Tensho" - Ichigo's Shikai attack: Zangetsu takes Ichigo's spiritual pressure and releases the super high density pressure from the blade.

Getsuga Tensho certainly is great, but, its slow unwieldy technique is no match for speed. Also, the amount of spirit energy it consumes is a major disadvantage.
Had it not been for Byakuya underestimating Ichigo, I doubt he would have been scratched by the Getsuga Tensho Ichigo used to blow away the thousand blades. (As shown in episode 59, Byakuya managed to dodge Hollow Ichigo's Black Moon Fang thrice.)

Byakuya, Initial Released state = Speed, Power, Kidou, Battle Experience.
Ichigo, Initial Released state = Power.

Byakuya still had the advantage during the Shikai battle, (He is a master of Kidou, after all) but due to Ichigo's constant insistence; and Byakuya acknowledging Ichigo's strength, he decided to use Bankai. - Not because he had no other option, or because he was forced to, thus he said: "Do not worry. I will not make you regret it. Before that, you will turn to dust and vanish from my sight."

Without the use of Bankai and the Hollow form, Ichigo would not have been able to defeat Byakuya.

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SS2 Vegeto

Byakuya was barely able to dodge getsuga tenshou at shikai. Of course it's just a "big slow move", at bankai. And, quite frankly, I find the notion that Ichigo, who thought it'd be okay to challenge Byakuya to release his bankai and continue to fight at shikai, not being lucidly superior to Byakuya..also at shikai, whether it was thoughtless of him or not, entirely absurd. Nothing is shown to suggest that Byakuya could manage at shikai. There's not any..canon backing for it, at all. He calls getsuga tenshou slow, at..bankai. He barely dodged it at shikai. Nothing else is shown. As for what Byakuya said at bankai release: "I will not make you regret it. Before that, you will turn to dust and vanish from my sight." How does this in any way relate to shikai? Yeah. He won't make him regret it - at bankai. He will turn to dust and vanish from his sight, before he has the chance to regret it - at bankai. And regardless of whether or not Ichigo was superior to Byakuya at shikai, he insisted that Byakuya used bankai. He'd been insisting since before he used shikai. If he gets pawnt, his attitude towards it may have been met with some..regret, or looked upon as..regretable foolishness, regardless of whether it would eventually come to that, or not. And, in fact, unless Ichigo dies fighting Byakuya at shikai, it would inevitably come to that anyways, because if Ichigo has him pressured majorly at shikai, he'll use..bankai. Ichigo was able to see the individual blades coming at them, and strike them down at the last moment, to counter Byakuya's initial release with an attack of his own, that was narrowly evaded. Ichigo's attitude afterwards shows no doubt in his mind that shikai is not an issue in this sitaution. Nothing is really brought up in contradiction to this.

You've also missed the mark with bankai. "By focusing all of your bankai's power...into that small blade...you can fight at maximum force at super high speed." His bankai does not simply.."retain" the strength he had in his shikai state. Nothing is stated to suggest that, and the only difference between Ichigo's bankai, and other's, is that whereas bankai is normally a vast expansion, Ichigo's is a superdense compression - to assume that that would yet have no affect to augment power is rather farfetched, and rather baseless I'd say. The statement "fight at maximum force" hardly seems to indicate such a thing, as well. In addition, Ichigo has hardly mastered his bankai. He constantly lost speed, and his bones were cracking under the weight of his own spiritual pressure. Faced against Yammy, it is made not that Ichigo's reiatsu feels rather different than before, much more rough, and as Ulquiorra makes note, solid, impressed that he could gain such a mastery of bankai in such a short time - implying that this was note the case, when Ichigo had first made use of it. In fact, Hollow Ichigo taunted his counterpart, in his condition, exclaiming that he would show him how to use bankai, since Ichigo..apparantly couldn't handle it..and Ichigo has never really shown to have had those problems later. At that stage, he hardly had much master of bankai. As far as dodging Hollow Ichigo's kuroi getsuga tenshou thrice, all that happened in that exchange was that Byakuya took damage from a large sword wound down his shoulder and across the front of his body, slid backwards, called down a blade, only to be met with a kuroi getsuga tenshou coming straight at him, and in the next instant, another fired off from the side, and as he began to leap, Hollow Ichigo was already behind him, and he was struck by the attack, left heavily wounded and exhasperated. Dispite the advanced recovery in this state, Hollow Ichigo was furthermore making use of an injured body. And..plain old Ichigo is faster than Byakuya by a large margin, anyways, at bankai. Byakuya had completely lost sight of him twice, and upon finally catching him, had his attack repelled, as Ichigo swatted away all of the blades. Byakuya stated himself that Senkei does not increase his speed. Ichigo just got slower. It's anyone's guess if Hakuteiken has a speed benefit (personally, I find it likely, with all that reiatsu focused on his body).

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Evil Dark Knight

I don't think Byakuya actually tried to dodge the getsuga tenshou, he seemed more surprised at the power of the attack. However, if there is proof that he shited his position, I will withdraw that part of my statement. (Though I know someone is going to say the thousand blades approached Ichigo in the shape of a coil and Ichigo used the Getsuga Tenshou to cut through the middle, yet it passed Byakuya's hand)

As for what Byakuya said before he released his Bankai, I merely quoted that to prove the fact he was not forced through pressure to use bankai. Nothing is shown to prove Byakuya could not handle Ichigo at shikai. Also, I doubt Ichigo planned on beating Byakuya's bankai in his shikai state, rather, after Byakuya released his bankai, he was determined to see how long he could last challenging a bankai without releasing his. The reason he wasn't regretful after being striked down was because he was aware from the beginning that he could only win using bankai. In other words, Ichigo knew Shikai was not enough, and he was confident of his bankai abilities, that is the reason why he insisted Byakuya released his bankai and fought with him.

I am aware that Byakuya was struck by the kuroi getsuga tenshou, but that was because of Hollow Ichigo decelerating his escape. Hollow Ichigo is superior to Byakuya in both speed and power, that explains how he was able to get behind him after releasing a frontal assault. The point is, Byakuya was able to dodge the attack by warp-stepping, and if Ichigo did not have the bankai to increase his speed and catch up, a large energy consuming attack would be pointless against a faster enemy. Ichigo is only faster than Byakuya in his bankai state. But this is a debate excluding bankai and Hollow interference.
Yes, Getsuga Tenshou is more powerful than Senbonzakura's thousand blades, but is has a few (I'll mention two) draw backs. 1) It consumes a large amount of energy, so Ichigo won't be able to use it so often. Once it begins to strain him, Byakuya will be free to use the thousand blades attack without it being deflected by a stronger attack. 2) It lacks speed, (face it, all byakuya needs to do is side-step and without Ichigo in his hollow form suddenly appearing from behind and constricting Byakuya's movements, he's not going to get hit twice).

With the use of demon arts, I do believe Byakuya is able to defeat Ichigo in his Initial Released state.

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JAIF

(only replying to the first paragraph, too busy to read the whole argument)

So you think Byakuya just... took Getsuga Tenshou head-on, and only like... suffered a minor cut, and from that little wound he assumed that he needed Bankai to beat Ichigo?

It's pretty clear that he sidestepped it.

Evil Dark Knight

. . . No, I think you should read the entire post.

Didn't say he took it head-on. More like, he was too surprised to move?

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JAIF

Either he evaded it, he partially evaded it, or it struck him, there are... no other possibilities, by any laws, excluding those that require him to... counterattack, or something - unless you are implying that he cut himself for some reason, Byakuya was hit by it, and if you are implying he took it head-on, the full force of the blast striking him, you are wrong, because the path that the Getsuga Tenshou carved into the ground is clearly visible next to him - proving it with a scan is an easy and painless process - which means, either he sidestepped it or the blast's course wasn't meant to hit him originally, which makes no difference - a "slow, unwieldy" attack meant to disrupt Byakuya's own not only managed to do so without any sign of difficulty, but also caused injury to Byakuya - you can say it took him by surprise, but I mean... you are a shinigami, you've been fighting for a thousand years, and you still haven't learnt to be prepared in case your opponent throws something like that? No, it's more like a) he didn't feel the neccessity to sidestep the attack, even after it pierced Senbonzakura's release, or b) he wasn't fast enough to avoid it completely - in the first case, Ichigo proved him wrong by injuring him, in the second, he is too slow to begin with, so your point is void.

Evil Dark Knight

It struck him.
That's the way I see it.
He underestimated Ichigo's power, or, he didn't expect Ichigo to have a technique that powerful. (Remember Cell and Vegeta's Final Flash?) But even if he only managed to partially dodge it, I doubt Getsuga Tenshou alone would be sufficient.
You have to take into consideration the fact that Kariya Jin utterly defeated Ichigo in his shikai state, yet Byakuya was able to fight on par with him, in both speed and strength without the help of a bankai. The shikai fight between Ichigo and Byakuya seemed a bit rushed to me, resulting in bankai being used so early in the fight.
Also, even after Ichigo blew away the thousand blades and explicated the ability, Byakuya didn't seem intimidated by it, indirectly expressing that in a perdurable battle Getsuga Tenshou is not enough. And if I'm not mistaken, Ichigo made it clear that Getsuga Tenshou was the only technique Zangetsu thought him.

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JAIF

Ugh. *clutches chest in pain*

That was filler.

Which makes me think you haven't read the manga, instead only watched the anime.

Which explains a lot...

By the way, if the blast wasn't meant to hit him, yet he still got wounded, that says enough.

If the blast was meant to hit him, yet he couldn't avoid that 'slow, unwieldy' technique completely, again that says enough, even if you add in the element of surprise.

Evil Dark Knight

. . . Convinient excuse.
Despite it being a filler, I still saw it merely as an episode displaying Byakuya's power.

I have/do read the anime.

I don't deny its power. If it was not that powerful and able to blow away the thousand blades, Ichigo would have been forced to use his bankai first.

I doubt that was the case. But are you saying that one technique is enough to beat a Captain level Shinigami?

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