SS2 Vegeto

No. Pain stated that he'd need 30% of their chakra. After both Shoutens are killed, Kisame states that with this jutsu, strength is proportionate to chakra donated, not to mention that jutsu are limited. The only reason chakra equals strength in this situation was because it was used to actually build a body identical to theirs. Chakra is 50% physical energy and 50% mental/spiritual energy, so if only 30% of those energies are available to form a duplicate body, it makes sense why it would turn out less than a third of the original quality in mostly..everything. Here. Scans.

Naruto Manga Returns

Naruto Manga Returns
Naruto Manga Returns
Bleach Exile > Online Manga Reader > Naruto > Chapter #260 > Page #17

I explained this in detail. Go read over my tailed form - bijuu comparison. Pre-training Yonbi Naruto matching up to the full Yonbi isn't going to happen, thinking logically. Not likely.

Kakuzu is pretty strong. We didn't see much of the fight. Having a stronger Jinchuriki also boosts the power of the two together. Deidara said something about how his target was "only the Ichibi" iirc. The Sanbi was apparently pretty strong (relevant to what, one might wonder?), though stupid without a host, and the Yonbi was made out to be stronger than those others. The Kyuubi is the strongest. Sounds like it's going in order to me.

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Nikushimi

For people using the Sasuke/Itachi fight, you have to factor in a multitude of different things:

1. Itachi's been pulling his punches from the start, to avoid damaging the eyes. Stated.

2. A large part of why Itachi is in his current condition is due to his use of Mangekyou Jutsu, which so far, only Sasuke has proven capable of avoiding.

3. Sasuke right now is essentially what Orochimaru would be if he had Sharingan. Which means that if we swapped out Sasuke for a Sharinganless Orochimaru...oh God...Itachi would have raped him from all kinds of directions, several chapters ago.

4. We have confirmation that Sasuke is completely out of chakra. His final attack "Kirin" was not made by him alone, but aided greatly by the heat produced from Itachi's Amaterasu, without which, Sasuke could not have generated the technique. And even then, Itachi survived a direct hit from it, and is about to open up his most powerful Jutsu yet.




Sasuke is...pretty much a horrible match for Itachi right now. But if you take away Sharingan from both, you basically have...Itachi (no Sharingan)=Orochimaru. Considering how brutally Itachi would curbstomp Orochimaru with Sharingan, it's not at all unreasonable to say that Kisame would do the same, yet remain inferior to Itachi. Since he lacks Sharingan. Well, you're probably thinking, "Sasuke has Sharingan too". Yes, that's true, but remember, Itachi's been trying not to go totally apeshit on Sasuke because he doesn't want to damage his eyes, and if not for a certain snake-shedding Jutsu, Sasuke would've been dead a while ago when Amaterasu rolled around. The only weak point in Itachi's wall of defenses that seems to have let Sasuke find an opening is his Stamina, which as we all know, Kisame has more than enough of. And even then, he survived Sasuke's last-ditch mega-Jutsu, which to begin with, was indirectly contributed to by Itachi. And Itachi still survived it.

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Mystic_Gohan

LOL. Priceless.

SS2 Vegeto

It was actually pretty objective and well thought-out. But I suppose laughing and then contributing nothing as if it does not deserve a response is more self-satisfying. Stop it. Regardless of whether or not one perceives someone else as predisposed towards a certain conclusion, acting on your own predisposition rooted in that doesn't make one any more balanced in their treatment than they perceive that individual to be (whether or not it is true). In fact, considering one side posted an explanation and the other just laughed and posted nothing, it's worse in any scenario. You've just acted on your presuppositions about the individual to disregard the argument.

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Mystic_Gohan

Lol, you're only saying that because you share the same opinions with him on the subject.

You've gotta admit, it is pretty hilarious how he's discrediting everything Sasuke has done in the fight, in every sentence. I would've said the same thing for anyone who posted that, Niku gets no special treatment.

Nikushimi

Perhaps discreditting Sasuke is not wrong?

Perhaps I'm not simply out to do it, but in fact I may just have some good points?

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Mystic_Gohan

Oh, and if I decided to start discrediting Itachi that wouldn't be wrong as well?

Good points? Ha, not even.

Nikushimi

You're welcome to try.

Funny how you say that but don't elaborate on it.

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NarutoFan

I don't approve of you beating a dead horse, Niku. =\

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Nikushimi

Que?

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NarutoFan

Mystic_Gohan, there's no need for you to debate; you've already won.

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Mystic_Gohan

Meh, I'm not really in the mood to argue today, I'm really tired. Perhaps tomorrow.

SS2 Vegeto

Itachi is having to work around not damaging Sasuke's eyes. That much is not debatable. For example, if he had kept up Amaterasu a little bit longer, Sasuke may have been at serious risk. How much of an issue it actually is would be something more open for discussion.

Tsukuyomi is certainly a significant part of why Itachi is having as much of a hard time as he is. It was stated that breaking out of Tsukuyomi was what tipped the scales in Sasuke's favour. Sasuke can break the Tsukuyomi thanks to his exceptional ability with his eyes, but he couldn't produce genjutsu on that scale. As explained, Itachi's weapon is greater. Genjutsu against Sasuke was pointless, because of his apparently greater ability with a lesser weapon, though it's worth mentioning, Itachi was in the same boat here, so it seems, evidently for..different reasons. Before suffering from the side-affects of Tsukuyomi, Itachi was able to easily match and avoid Sasuke's attacks, while creating a Kage Bunshin and/or casting genjutsu during the exchange. Afterwards, he was hit by an attack that he should have been able to dodge with ease. Whereas Sasuke only suffered fatigue, Itachi suffered both that and impared vision. Due to the nature and circumstances of the fight, the weaker became the stronger for a time. That does not mean, however, that just comparing the two, they're abilities by themselves, side by side, that Sasuke literally possesses a greater strength. If he were to..generally measure up better to the average shinobi, that would be a different case.

Sasuke is on the losing end right now, no matter how you look at it, despite all of that. He did waste all his chakra, his most powerful jutsu did indeed fail, and Itachi is just now resorting to the final technique of his mangekyo sharingan.

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Mystic_Gohan

Uhh no. From the start Itachi has done what he ALWAYS does... and that is use genjutsu. He can't really be pulling his punches there, as that's more to do with his mind, if anything.

And honestly, who's fault is that? He knows the risks Mangekyou imposes to his eyes, using them comes with a price.

Not really. I don't think Orochimaru is able to use Sasuke's Chidori manipulations. And Orochimaru was only defeated by Itachi the first time, because of ignorance and bad planning.

Naw, Itachi's Amaterasu wasn't the greatest factor contributing to that. Sasuke is just using Itachi's own abilities against him, it's a strategy.

No, like I said earlier, Sasuke = Sharinganless Orochimaru, is invalid. They both have completely different fighting styles. The only thing Sasuke has been doing similar to Orochimaru is using snake jutsu, that's about it. Uhh no, again Kisame is completely different from Itachi, you can't just assume Kisame would beat him, just because Itachi did. For one, the only reason Itachi beat him (and the majority of his opponents) is because of his Sharingan, does Kisame have the Sharingan? No. Itachi couldn't have damaged his eyes in a genjutsu, and that's what the majority of the battle, Itachi did, like he always does. But this time, it failed. And just like you say Sasuke survived Amaterasu because of "a certain snake-shedding jutsu", so what? Itachi survived Kirin because of a certain "weird-ass Mangekyou technique".

And I also find it funny how you keep mentioning Itachi's been pulling his punches from the start, to avoid damaging the eyes. When I've said in the past, that Sasuke was pulling his punches from the start against Deidara, so he could interrogate him about Itachi. But no, it was all "OMG DEIDARA ALMOST BEAT SASUKE, HE TOOK HIM TO HIS LIMITS!!", "SASUKE ONLY WON BECAUSE OF FANSERVICE!!!".

Pfft.

SS2 Vegeto

Not necessarily throughout the whole fight, though. And honestly, I doubt he was going all out at the start, otherwise Sasuke wouldn't have held his own at base at all. Whether he made careless or inconvenient decisions only means that he did worse in that fight (again, after a point, and up to a point), not that he's literally "weaker". The weaker fighting, under the right circumstances, can beat a stronger one. I explained the specifics of this, as it relates to them, in detail.

It's his fault. Does that make him weaker? Not really. It means he underestimated a weaker opponent and got burned because of it.

Sasuke speaks in a way to Hebi that suggests he and Orochimaru were on very similar levels. Orochimaru may have a different bag of tricks, but you can still compare how good they are in a fight. Though I disagree that Sasuke now is essentially like Orochimaru with sharigan - he absorbed all his abilities, his chakra (physical and mental/spiritual energy), so of course he improved a lot. However, the reason Orochimaru lost was because he was weaker. That was simply a fight that he could not have won. He states that Itachi is stronger than him, without attaching any conditions to it. This hasn't been questioned, contradicted, retracted, or in any way cast into suspicion. Orochimaru was pretty much convinced that pursuing after Itachi was a totally lost cause.

It would have taken him longer to generate the technique, if at all. Even against Itachi as he was, it would be rather inconvenient to pull off. And it still failed. Though, I grant that this point is of less importance than some others, since although luck may have been a factor, the ability to strategize in the midst of battle factors in to that individual's competence in battle.

You can't eliminate genjutsu as part of his overall strength any more than ninjutsu, taijutsu, speed and power. And as evident from his performance against Sasuke, Itachi pretty much has Oro on ninjutsu as well, save for some serious forbidden stuff, yet none of that matches up to Amaterasu either, being considered the greatest ninjutsu and all. And he's faster. Also, Kisame versus Sasuke would probably be a pretty interesting fight. Both are easily stronger than Orochimaru, water conducts electricity, Chidori is a Raiton type ninjutsu, Samehada absorbs chakra, Chidori is a visible, tangible manifestation of elemental chakra, Katon fails against Suiton (no Kirin, as well), both are extremely fast, both wield a sword...there'd be some epic stuff going down. Based on what we have to understand Kisame's abilities, I'd say the final outcome such an exchange is perfectly debatable. On your last point, once you're looking at the full scope of Deidara's abilities, Sasuke's survival becomes an issue whatever way you look at it, whether he is attacking full on with killing intent or otherwise (and I think he was willing to question Tobi instead, when you plunked him into a minefield..). When I talk about comparing two people's "strengths" I'm talking about the full extent of their abilities, what both are capable of in full.

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