ANB

1-Boo crudely tore through the barrier with raw chi. Isuki used his special magical abilities to create a portal; your acting like he's strong enough to do it (which isn't true). At best, Itsuki is a B-class demon. Sensui admitted that even he could do nothing to the barrier and it is DESIGNED to make sure A and S classes don't get through.

Facts:

-The Kekkei is a dimensional barrier for Makai and Ningenkai
-The ROSAT is a seperated by a dimensional barrier

^The comparison of the two is pretty clear. @Kuwabara, the sword was specifically designed to cut through barriers does not reflect his actual strength. He was easily defeated by Sensui who simultaneously trashed Hiei and Kurama (who were restored to A-class power). By your logic, Kuwabara>>>Sensui.

The SDF team were using a spell IIRC to "lower the barrier". They'd know how to drop it, after-all, since they are from Reikai and Reikai is responsible for creating the barrier in the first place. Enma tuaght them the spell they'd need. Again: It was a special ability and did not refelct their strength. Otherwise, there is a serious plot-hole implying A-class SDF members>>>S-class demons (who cannot break through the barrier). The fact we're arguing about this should tell you why DBZ and YYH's worlds are incompatible.

2-Who knows how big Makai is. We just know for sure that the floors are not infinite since Koenma specifically used a geo-political map to demonstrated how much ground Reikai has covered:



3-See the scan above. Koenma says "We cannot afford to loose the territory we've gained". They know exactly how large the floor is.

4-Raizen discussion should be thrown into a safe and dumped into a black hole until viz translates it.


P.S: Are you G-Lord...? =D

Old Rai

Sorry, I'm gonna have to disagree there. They are two different things and cannot be compared. The ROSAT didn't have a magical force field surrounding it that stops A class and stronger powers from getting through. The Kekkai was more of a force field set up between dimensions than a dimensional barrier. The ROSAT was another dimension. Unlike the Kekkai, the ROSAT's dimensional "barrier" was it's dimensional limits, which aren't really a barrier in terms of a force field.

I also said before that I didn't think Itsuki was as powerful as Super Boo. I even said that I don't think that ripping holes in dimensions is entirely about power. As you said, special abilities and techniques are also a factor. Even in the case of Super Boo, he didn't get through the ROSAT limits just by using his Ki alone, as you are making it sound:



He focussed his Ki into a technique that enabled him to use his Ki to tear through the dimensional limits of the ROSAT. The power was essential: without the power of Super Boo's ki, that technique wouldn't have done anything and it can be said that the power of Super Boo's ki can open holes in dimensions. However, without the technique, the Ki of Super Boo also would not have done anything. That is why I ignored half of your post, as it was addressing something I never said. The only reason I brought Itsuki up was to show you that he uses the same mechanism for overcoming dimensional barriers as Super Boo: he rips open holes in them.



This is useful for overcoming barriers like that of the ROSAT: dimensional limits. But it was useless when dealing with a magical force field. I don't think Super Buu's scream could overcome the Kekkai, as it has already been shown to resist techniques that rip holes between dimensions. I'm not saying that this proves or disproves anything about the strength of DBZ or YYH. What I am saying is that this does prove that your argument for Super Boo >>> YYH is flawed and should be dropped, as it is not based on facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB 2-Who knows how big Makai is. We just know for sure that the floors are not infinite since Koenma specifically used a geo-political map to demonstrated how much ground Reikai has covered:

That's merely one interpretation of it, and I respect that. But, unfortunately there are other interpretations that contradict the conclusions made. Youda said that gaining Raizen's generals is equivalent to gaining territory. This is because that power allows one to influence territory without actually occupying it. In the Viz Manga, Koenma talks about holding partial sway over the first level of the Demon Realm. "Gaining ground" usually refers to taking out the few demon rulers which possess power enough to oppose his rule. That "geo-political map" can just as easily be a graph which merely shows the ruling influence the Spirit Realm has over the Demon Realm in comparison to the few powerful rulers on the first level. I find this much more convincing as opposed to conquering a limited territory, because:

1) Koenma doesn't contradict himself when he said "the Demon Plane is an endlessly vast and deep land". And;
2) It explains why we never see any of the Spirit Realm's holdings in the Demon Realm.

I'd like to agree with your interpretation of that statement, but it just leaves a few things unexplained and it seems incosistant with what we see of the Demon Realm (ie. do we ever see the end of a level?). The Viz Manga translated it slightly differently, so that it seems to be talking about ruling influence, instead of physical conquest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB 4-Raizen discussion should be thrown into a safe and dumped into a black hole until viz translates it.

Sure. Whatever is good for both of us, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB P.S: Are you G-Lord...? =D

What? No, I just joined a few days ago. I've been at other boards, but never by the name of "G-lord". What made you think I was him?

Nefelpitou

Mreow! This thread has EXPLODED! Good stuff on both sides. Parts of the evidence I've seen posted on this board in the past have been challenged in this thread, which is good to see. The evidence, though, has been defended remarkably well. Hiei would definitely win this match with ease. If Seikouki is equivalent to a low S class power, then Hiei as an S+ class cannot be beaten by Vegeta.

If you look at eastern mysticism, the power of Seikouki as Sensui described it is similar to one of the legends about the Boddhidharma. The Boddhidharma could master and harness the forces of creation by merging with nature. Sensui stated that this was also one of the powers of Seikouki (merging with nature). The Boddhidharma managed to gain his power by transcending the Samsaras and attaining Nirvana/Enlightenment. This is a pretty big power, as it can be seen as a link to the Divine (enlightenment by being of the Dharmakaya, which is similar to God and Brahman). This is probably what Yoshihiro Togashi based Seikouki on, given that many of his creations are based on eastern mysticism. This would also explain many of Sensui's other statements about his power.The only difference is that Sensui did state that he did have difficulty wielding his power, and that he had "nearly become a god". This suggests that although he had the divine link and was capable of transcending the physical realm, he had not yet fully embraced Nirvana.

There are some other very interesting parallels between Sensui and Boddhidharma. Boddhidharma attained his enlightenment after nine years of facing a wall. Sensui disappeared for 10 years, and mastered Seikouki before that ten year period was up. Boddhidharma also sat in a cave during his nine-year meditation, and it is said that his shadow became etched on the wall. When I heard that, I instantly thought of the Irima Cave with the Ura Otoko on the wall, with Itsuki inside watching over Sensui. I haven't yet finished reading about the Boddhidharma, but it is all very interesting.

I found all this very interesting stuff. This is not an argument, as the eastern mystical foundations of the idea of Seikouki aren't actually a part of the YYH canon itself. However, it can be a good way to peer into just what Yoshi may have truly meant by Seikouki, and why he wrote what he wrote. This is actually my Bible Study side showing: in order to gain a greater understanding of the Scripture, it is neccessary to understand the full context in which the Scripture was written. This often means reading history that occurred beyond the Scripture. But when you come back to the Scripture, you have a MUCH clearer understanding of it. It's only natural of me to do the same in all of my "studies", lol.

Enough deep and meaningful! Was Nefelpitou, the Chimera Ant King's elite Royal Guard, ever deep and meaningful 24/7? No! Only in short, concentrated doses! So, check this out:

HIEI VS. VEGETA:


Lol. Enjoy! Keep safe everyone!

ANB

Let's leave the Makai-physical description debate alone for a while.

@Dimension:

Okay, these are direct quotes from Volume 41 of DBZ, chapters 297 and 298 (I am literally holding them in my hand)

Piccolo sees that Boo is too much for Gotenks. His back-up plan is to seal him inside the ROSAT. The ROSAT is explicitly labeled numerous times as a "separate dimension" and "another world": That was the only door between our world and this one--Piccolo, page 98. The ROSAT is literally another "world" in the sense and title of ch. 298 is "Escape from the Time Dimension".

So if Makai is another dimension and plane of existence and Ningenkai is likewise a seperate dimension and plane of existence, the kekkai's role and the door to the ROSAT are essentially the same. The Kekkai's purpose is where they are different: It's trying to keep things out. The door readily lets things in. Thinkg of it as the difference between a prostitute and someone with a cork in their butt XD

Anyway, Piccolo stated that the door was the "only way to travel between our world and this one". Once it is destroyed, Boo will "Never escape". Likewise, A and S class demons CANNOT go through the kekkai. Itsuki managed to lower the outer force-field layers but the kekkai was so strong only Kuwabara's Dimension-cutting-sword could open it.

The similarities are clear. Makai and Ningenkai are seperate dimensions. Earth and the Dimension of Time are seperate dimensions. They are seperated by a barrier: One is always closed (unless you lower it with a spell) and the other is open until after 48 hours.

@Super Boo:

The "force-field" was the basic one even Itsuki could weaken. Beneath it was the kekkai. Notice how all the D-class demons that were forcing their way in brok through it and it shattered just like glass...? Looking at the hole Boo made, it's very similar.

Piccolo states on pg. 133 that he "blew a hole throught the dimensional barrier with his chi!". So yes, he uses his chi. The difference is, the attack is brute strength and Itsuki is using a special ability to rip holes in dimensions. Boo forces them open with raw power. Your statement, that it was only the technique that did it, is false. Boo was not even aware he could do such a thing. If it had been a kamehemha or even a regular chi-blast of equal power it would do the same thing. Itsuki's abilities have nothing to do whatsoever with his strength.

-The Kekkai is a barrier between dimensions;
-Boo can rip holes in the barriers between dimensions;
-Ergo, Boo can rip open the kekkai. There is really no way of denying this since the kekkai CAN be broken as demonstrated by Kuwabara.

Old Rai

I agree that the role is the same. However, the one flaw in your logic is that the way in which they operated is completely different. The door to the ROSAT was merely an existing tunnel. In other words, it is essentially the same as the hole Super Boo ripped in the dimension. If Itsuki was trapped in the ROSAT, he'd easily be able to get out, because the door does not provide a physical barrier to him. However, in the case of the Kekkai, it provides a physical barrier, even after a hole between two dimensions is made. This makes the example of Super Boo busting out of the ROSAT insufficient to prove that he could break the Kekkai, as Super Boo didn't break a magical force field in order to escape. He merely opened a hole out of the ROSAT to compensate for the destruction of the other "hole" to the ROSAT (the door).

There are three things I've bolded there. In regards to the "force field" I was referring to, no, the "broken glass" was not it. That was the dimensional tunnel itself. The Kekkai was behind that, and it provide a physical barrier (as opposed to a dimensional barrier) to demons getting in.

Referring to the "Super Boo scream", I did not state that the technique alone did it. I stated that it was due to Buu's ki, and without the ki, his scream would have done nothing. However, there is no denying that it was his Ki alone. He focussed it into a scream. I posted that scan showing the focussed beam of noise and ki to show it was a technique. Without that focus, his Ki would have done nothing. I never said he deliberately used a technique either. I think that two things are needed to transcend dimensions: ki and a method of using it. Transcending dimensions isn't always linked directly to power either: characters in DBZ and YYH less powerful than Super Boo have made dimensional tunnels. But they always used a power source (ki) and a way of using this power.

The only problem I have with the final bolded part is that the Kekkai could be broken by the Jigen Tou, as you said, due to the special power of Kuwabara's sword. The Kekkai was a magical force field that seemed to ignore brute power. That's why it was set up in the first place: to stop beings with more power than the Spirit Realm Special Defense Forces from getting in. If it could be overcome by brute power (like the Kekkai Ruka used on Hiei), it would have gone down ages ago.

Super Boo's attack is closer in comparison to Itsuki's method of opening holes in dimensions, in that it does just that: rips holes in dimensions. Yes, Super Boo does it with strength and Itsuki does it with his ability, but all Super Boo did was open a hole in a dimension, just like Itsuki. He never showed anything that could take down a magic force field that ignores brute strength, therefore, it cannot be proven that Super Boo can take down the Kekkai. In fact, the fact that it could only rip holes in dimensions makes it look like he can't take down the Kekkai, as other people who could also rip open holes in dimensions found dimension-ripping abilities useless against it.

P.S.: One thing I haven't made clear enough is that I'm dealing in probabilities and not absolutes. Like, with this "Super Boo/Kekkai" thing, I am open to the fact that Super Boo could possibly break through the Kekkai. The Jigen Tou was able to break it, so it isn't unbreakable. But Super Boo making a tunnel out of the ROSAT isn't the same as breaking a magical force field. I think it is unlikely that Super Boo could break the Kekkai based on the feat you have given, given that Itsuki could also most likely escape the ROSAT by making a tunnel between dimensions, but could not affect the Kekkai due to it's magical nature. If you think Super Boo can break it, go ahead. I'm just saying I personally can't see enough proof to confirm that view in my eyes, that's all. I'm merely giving just one opinion. In all my discussions with you, it has all been stuff that can be debated, and I'm just telling you my opinion, that's all. I'm not going to tout such opinions as concrete fact. If it were concrete fact, we probably wouldn't be having these discussions.

ANB

P.S: The fact we're having this discussion should tell you why the two worlds are incomparible--DBZ and YYH are designed quite differently but have a few similarities.

As for the door, I agree it was a tunnel. But there is one last factoid: The fact Piccolo stated it was physically impossible to do anything to the barriers between the two worlds. Boo defied that. The stronger demons cannot go to the human world even if the barrier is down because of the kekkai. Boo was supposed to not be able to get through because "the entrance was sealed". It's true their properties are different but I wanted to point that out.

Old Rai

I agree to a certain extent. I think the fact that we are having disagreements over the nature of both worlds shows that we both have a different understanding of both worlds, which explains why we can't draw a comparison ourselves. I personally think the two worlds can be basically compared, but that's given how I view both worlds. But I think I was saying something similar to Gazooya: I don't like straight vs. threads because we have to draw unofficial comparisons. I believe that if the worlds and strength of the characters from DBZ and YYH were supposed to be compared in forums like this, then Yoshihiro Togashi and Akira Toriyama would agree on it.

I don't think Yoshihiro Togashi takes DBZ vs. YYH too seriously. The doujinshi written by him that Nefelpitou-sama posted earlier showed a short fight between pre-demon Toguro and Majin Buu, with Toguro winning by firing a Rei Gun. Majin Buu was supposedly one of the many demons Toguro destroyed in his demon slaying days in the Yoshi-rin de pon world. He wasn't disrespecting DBZ vs. YYH, but he was having a good time being cheeky. He also drew several other short stories in that doujinshi that were all cheeky and funny. The funniest was Toguro as a school-girl. That doujinshi showed just how fictional worlds do not always follow the rules that we may think apply to them. It is ultimately up to the creators who have the real authority on the issue, which is related to the reason why I don't like vs. threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB As for the door, I agree it was a tunnel. But there is one last factoid: The fact Piccolo stated it was physically impossible to do anything to the barriers between the two worlds. Boo defied that. The stronger demons cannot go to the human world even if the barrier is down because of the kekkai. Boo was supposed to not be able to get through because "the entrance was sealed". It's true their properties are different but I wanted to point that out.

Is this the scene you are referring to?



I thought that Piccolo said that Super Boo could not leave because the only tunnel to the ROSAT dimension was destroyed. He assumed that Super Boo was incapable of forming his own tunnel. If Itsuki was in the same position, and Piccolo didn't know that Itsuki could make holes in dimensions, then Piccolo would say the same thing and Itsuki would replicate the same feat as Super Boo (making a tunnel, but with a special ability instead). This still doesn't address overcoming the Kekkai, though. Although Itsuki should be able to escape the ROSAT if it is just a dimension, he couldn't do anything to the Kekkai.

Raven

Strategy and Cleverness: Hiei

Raw Power and Determination: Vegeta

It'd come down to strategy versus brute power. DBZ characters are awfully overpowered, I'm not sure Hiei would do anything that would be sufficient to take Vegeta down but he could most likely offer some decent form of an offensive with his dragon and sword techniques.

__________________

Official Anime Collection: Cowboy Bebop The Movie + DVD's 1 - 5 (Remix), Fullmetal Alchemist Season 1 Part 1, Patlabor, Samurai X, Wolf's Rain complete collection, Azumanga Daioh, Serial Experiments Lain, Howl's Moving Castle, Kurau, Weiss Kreuz Gluhen, Kino's Journey, Magical Shopping Arcade: Abenobashi, Gundam Wing complete collection + Endless Waltz, Wolf Brigade, Appleseed, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Tokyo Godfathers.

ANB

^Bad translation. He says "The ONLY door between this world and our".

Anyway, I just checked the YYH manga itself and it pretty much confirms that the kekkai is a dimensional barrier and not different at-all from the ROSAT. Both divide two parallel and completely different worlds. Both prevent anything from getting through.

Here, Sensui states that the first "gate" is opened and weaker demons can get through:

Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.16 Ch.008 Online Manga Scans

Next, it is described funnily enough as a "tunnel":

Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.16 Ch.008 Online Manga Scans

And there you have it. The kekkai is explicitly labeled as a "barrier" and separates the two "dimensions". Kuwabara sword is the only thing that can cut it and the sword is also described as a dimension-cutter. I don't think it can get any more clear than that; This proves Super Boo>>>S-class. It also goes to show how incompatible the two universes are.

Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.16 Ch.008 Online Manga Scans

Old Rai

Your "proof" is flawed. The Kekkai is a "barrier", but of the physical and magical kind. A magical force field. The kind you can touch.
Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.16 Ch.008 Online Manga Scans

The ROSAT "barrier" is merely the dimensional limits. The kind you cannot touch. The "barrier" it provides is of a similar nature to the dimensional limits of the various realms in YYH. Hiei wanted to go to the Demon Realm, but the dimensional limits of the Human Realm provided a barrier that stopped him from being able to go over to the Demon Realm. Itsuki showed he could overcome the kind of "barrier" that Super Boo overcame, that the ROSAT and the YYH realms provide, by ripping through dimensional limits. Although it took him ages to create permanent holes "2km in size", it took him seconds to create temporary holes that allowed one or two people to travel between dimensions:
Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.17 Ch.003 Online Manga Scans

"A temporary hole that allowed one or two people to travel between dimensions?" Sounds EXACTLY like Super Boo's hole which he used to overcome the barrier imposed by the dimensional limits of the ROSAT. The dimensional limits of the ROSAT and of the DBZ universe and those of the Human Realm and the Demon Realm "seperate" the two worlds and thus provide a metaphysical "barrier". However, the Kekkai is set up in between dimensional limits to provide an ADDITIONAL seperating power to the demons who are capable of overcoming the first barrier (dimensional limits). Super Boo only showed the ability to overcome the barrier imposed by dimensional limits and therefore only showed he could do what Itsuki did. Itsuki could overcome the barriers imposed by dimensional limits, but NOT the magical and physical barrier imposed by the Kekkai. This means it is unlikely Super Boo could break through the Kekkai with his scream.

The only reason you think the two universes are incompatible is because you fail to grasp this. Also, the reason you're not convincing me or anyone else is because you're trying to make it sound like dimensional limits and the Kekkai are the same, when they are two completely different things. They are both classed as "barriers", but the kind of barrier they provide are not at all similar.

P.S. I would seriously reconsider using Mangafox translations for exact quotes. If you are quoting Mangafox as fact:

A classes = God
Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.15 Ch.009 Online Manga Scans

Genkai is as strong as Sensui, as she can use Seikouki
Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.16 Ch.005 Online Manga Scans

Although the raws themselves are most faithful to Yoshihiro Togashi's work (of course), the Viz Media translation is the most faithful translation I have read so far.

G-lord

Hiei wins this one if he is S class Hiei. There is no comparison between him and Vegeta at this level. Like Lord_Sloth, Zer0 and others have said in this thread, this has already been discussed by many members here in many other threads in the past at MFG. According to the proof presented by both sides, the general consensus was that S classes are usually beyond end of DBZ levels. That is all. For those of you who haven't been in too many DBZ vs YYH threads, have fun. But I'll probably take my cue from the older board members earlier in the thread and say there is no point starting what has already been done and finished.

__________________
"Hail to the King, baby!"

ANB

You haven't disproven anything.

-The Kekkai is still explicitly called a "dimensional barrier". There's no arguing about this: Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.16 Ch.008 Online Manga Scans
-The barrier between the ROSAT and Earth is a "dimensional barrier" (DBZ volume 41)
-Both barriers are designed keep beings from two parallel-worlds from intermingling.
-Super Boo can break dimensional barriers.
-Kuwabara sword is frequently described as a "dimension-cutter". He cut the kekkei which is frequently reffered to as a "barrier".
-The ROSAT barrier is actually even stronger than the kekkei. Piccolo said it was physically IMPOSSIBLE to get out once the door is sealed. Impossible. Do you know what that means...? The kekkei is not and was never stated to be impossible to break. Even fact, it only repells certain beings (strong demons) and Sensui was able to go through effortlessly with his golden-ki: Manga Fox: Yu Yu Hakusho Vol.16 Ch.008 Online Manga Scans



Exactly, the kekkei is an additional barrier. You just pointed out that it's all about the strength (stronger demons can break weaker barriers). The ROSAT's barriers covers it's entire area, not just the door. It's overlaps with Earth and is also magical (it repairs itself automatically) and physical (you can touch ki).

Super Boo's kiai>>>ROSAT barrier>Kekkei barrier>S-and A class>>>Itsuki's barrier ripping>>>Regular barriers. This is well supported by irrefutable facts on both sides and do not contradict any rules in either series. Now prove me wrong.

Old Rai

Itsuki was also a dimension ripper, but that didn't automatically make him capable of taking down the Kekkai.

Post a scan showing Piccolo stating that the "barrier" of ROSAT was "impossible" to break. Besides which, he was proven wrong by Super Boo, which completely shoots down your only "proof" of the "strength" of the ROSAT dimensional barrier. The fact that this is your sole proof for the strength of the dimensional barriers of ROSAT only increases my belief and the strength of my argument that the dimensional barriers of ROSAT were only its dimensional limits.

Also, if you are so convinced that the dimensional barriers imposed by the ROSAT are the same as those imposed by the Kekkai, could you please show a scan showing the barriers? As I said before, one of the distinctions between the Kekkai and dimensional limits is that the Kekkai functioned as a force field and can be seen and touched.

The dimensional limits of Spirit Realm and Demon Realm stop demons from invading the Spirit Realm. They are a barrier to demons wanting to attack Spirit Realm. It is exactly the same as the barrier imposed by the dimensional limits of the ROSAT. The Kekkai is in addition to the barrier imposed by dimensional limits, as demons possessed powers capable of overcoming these limits.

Itsuki could break dimensional barriers like the ones Super Boo was shown to break. Itsuki ripped a hole between two dimensions, over