Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
Well the fact is, Sasuke was pwning him in their little Genjutsu war early on. Sasuke was always one step ahead of him, regardless of whether he was trying hard or not, it doesn’t make Itachi look good at all, quite the opposite. Even Sasuke didn’t look like he was going all out early on either… it was only after he removed his cloak, that you get the idea, that the feeling out process is finished and both of them were ready to take the battle more seriously. Zetsu couldn’t see Itachi “lounging around his throne”, since that was part of the genjutsu.
|
They both saw through each other's genjutsu. It didn't last long on either of them, and it basically kept bouncing back and forth, until Sasuke basically went "I can see it already!" and it stopped. Neither of them looked any better than the other in that exchange. Sasuke could see through Itachi's genjutsu. Itachi could see through Sasuke's genjutsu. Eventually, they called it quits because of how pointless it was. That's with basic sharingan, so it's a reasonable assumption that Itachi is capable of more potent genjutsu with the mangekyo sharingan. Can Sasuke manage anything on the level of Tsukuyomi with basic sharingan? It's something beyond the capacity of basic sharingan. However, if he can just manage to break it, it'll hurt Itachi. Itachi was up against one of the two people in the world where this would have been a possibility. As I mentioned earlier, it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
It’s a little mix of both. Itachi’s statements made him sound more arrogant though by boasting his Mangekyou Sharingan.
|
Well, he was arrogant, but that wasn't necessarily the cause of his downfall. There really wasn't any reason for him to believe that it would have failed either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
When has he ever boasted about himself so highly? He always keeps his mind towards his priorities and if he ever has boasted of something, it is of the Uchiha clan, which he holds with high regard and honor. More so, he’s shown at one point and time that he barely even cared about himself and that killing Itachi was more important than his own life, even giving his own body to Orochimaru, if necessary. Actually, Sasuke stated that Orochimaru was weaker than him prior to absorbing his abilities. In fact, Sasuke was secretly hiding his true strength in Orochimaru’s presence, to not give him the impression that he had surpassed him. After Orochimaru and Yonbi Naruto’s fight, Kabuto lets it slip, and hints at an ulterior motive, saying Akatsuki is the true enemy. Orochimaru planned on assassinating Sasori, who is a very highly skilled Akatsuki member as we all know. He did not plan on taking his body, he planned on killing him, and he had no doubts on getting the job done. That itself shows the circumstantial differences between the intent on taking the user’s body and actually killing him. In fact, the only reason Orochimaru was able to catch Sasuke in his inner dimension, was because of the paralyzing vapors that his form released when his bodily fluids were exposed. Yes, he said he was stronger than him, but in that whole situation, he was talking about obtaining an Uchiha body. Since there were only 2 left, he said he could not take Itachi’s body because Itachi is to strong for him to do so, while Sasuke is still a kid, and the much easier option. Just because one is stronger does not automatically give them the victory over their opponent. This has been shown numerous times, whether Orochimaru vs. Sasuke at the Forest of Death, or Orochimaru vs. Yonbi Naruto. So you should stop looking at it through that perspective. |
Not boasting=/=humility. Just because he doesn't go out of his way to put himself on a pedestal unrealistically, doesn't mean he's going to be unrealistic about what he can and can't do in the opposite manner. I don't recall Sasuke ever trying to be humble either. I mean, "Another pansy for the group, quite the fit I'm sure". Sounds rather haughty and arrogant. He had no reason to be untruthful in what he was saying, and we are certainly given no indication, and therefore, no reason to believe that which is not suggested. Additionally, this doesn't indicate that he's not stronger than him at all, as opposed to making clear that if Orochimaru had been healthy, there's no telling/this would not have been near easy. These statements aren't in contest with each other.
We also realize that Orochimaru isn't stronger than Sasori, however. Also, in this past chapter, Orochimaru had expressed his intention to take Sasuke's body before attempting to beat Itachi. It was also stated by Sasuke, that for either him or Orochimaru it would be
impossible to kill Itachi as they were. Orochimaru doesn't need his body anymore. We're specifically talking about killing him here. Impossible. There is no possibility. When you say that, the person you are talking about is clearly stronger than you are. Orochimaru may have been talking about one of his potential hosts, but the reasoning he gave was not that he was simply too strong, but that he was stronger
he was. But, apparently, he is not really stronger than him, but stronger than him when he's trying to perform the transfer, therefore, stronger than him, but not
really? Whether a weaker opponent can beat a stronger one or not, there apparently is a limit to this, and Sasuke later expressed that he would consider it an impossibility to succeed in killing Itachi at his current strength, and that the same goes for Orochimaru.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
Eh, where was it written that? Nevertheless, it’s merely an opinion, especially for the time being.
|
Zetsu mentioned it. The left eye has the greatest genjutsu, and the right eye, the greatest ninjutsu. If Kishimoto bothered to hype it as the "greatest ninjutsu", it's at least better than whatever we've seen so far. It is not written for no reason at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
He could’ve killed him here, here, or maybe here. But of course he cared, he cannot question what is not there. Sasuke had no idea where Tobi was after he set the mines, and his main focus was the guy trying to blow him up on his little clay bird. |
First, that was a clay clone, so even if he had aimed to kill, it would have turned out exactly the same. Next, you can hear a sword unsheathing, and if he wasn't of the right elemental affinity, he wouldn't be standing there anyway. Last, Sasuke had one chidori nagashi left in him, and Deidara could attack too. They had some distance between them, both were tired, and Sasuke had electrocuted himself, so they weren't exactly very mobile. I mean, by the end of it they probably would have been wrestling. Also, what I said for the last one applies here. If he hadn't been of the right elemental affinity, he wouldn't be standing there anyway. In the end, after Deidara took to the skies, I really didn't see many opportunities to kill him. As for Tobi, he was watching what was happening from the trees. Sasuke has sharingan, it shouldn't be that hard to find him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
On the same page, he was speaking on the subject of obtaining an Uchiha body and that Itachi’s is too far out of his league to even try. But that does not concern them in an actual fight... just read what I posted above.
|
In an actual fight, it was still considered impossible. Additionally, the reason he couldn't take his body wasn't expressed as being that he was simply too strong for it to succeed, but that his strength surpassed Orochimaru's own. For elaboration, see my earlier response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
Not really, he moved around using the wave of water he created and he just blocked Gai’s kick with his big Samehada, that isn’t a good demonstration of speed. Visually follow? Gai went right in front of him, he didn’t even have to move his eyes. I still stand that his speed is nothing special at all…
I could probably try arguing why Yonbi Naruto is stronger than Kisame but that would be going too off subject, and I don’t want to start another big argument in this thread, where it doesn’t belong. But if you want, you could make another thread where we could argue about that.
|
Even if that was it, if it was only the water, that proves that he can move that fast as long as he has..water. He can create water out of nothing. That's not it, however. The water calmed afterwards. He still showed the ability to react to the whole team's attacks in order to protect himself, and even if it's pretty wide, to maneuver that heavy sword in order to block Gai's kick is pretty impressive. He didn't show any difficulty visually following everything that was going on (1 tier speed difference [or less] can be visually followed with considerable difficulty with two tomoe sharingan. Gai has tier 5 speed, and Neji and Lee both had tier 4 speed pre-timeskip), and most importantly, once the water calmed he was still on the offensive. He had no problem staying on Gai. Next, Kisame saw Gai's kick at sixth gate. He shouldn't have realized it until it hit him in the face if he wasn't considerably faster than base Gai. It should otherwise be impossible. His opponent should have have been moving faster than he could properly follow at not even half that speed if he were no faster than base Gai. This is a considerably watered down Kisame. The real deal should be more than three times faster.
It's probably more relevant to the topic than the main subject of discussion, to be honest..I don't really mind, though if you do, we could probably make another thread to deal with it. I can guess that you might think my analysis is pretty speculative, but it's actually just putting two and two together. It's been stated more than once that CSL2 yields a 10x increase from base, and we know that Naruto and Sasuke were an even match, both at base, at the Valley of the End before Sasuke's sharingan evolved. After it evolved, his body didn't change, but his taijutsu and speed of reaction did because his vision did. We can't be ridiculous with Naruto's Semi-Kyuubi increase, then, otherwise he wouldn't physically be able to keep up. See Lee and Sasuke. Furthermore, drawing on the Kyuubi chakra, Naruto can beat Semi-Shukaku Gaara as long as he takes the initiative and stays on the offensive, but it's not too far off. Naruto had to risk himself to disable Gaara's body, and Gaara both admits to having underestimated him and thanks to this, could only defend with the sand surrounding his body. Even if you don't take into account that other than the ability to predict his movements the strength difference between Sasuke and Semi-Kyuubi Naruto didn't change that much (thus, in being unable to predict how the chakra shroud would move, eliminating this, the Ichibi increase needn't be a full 10x, as opposed to maybe 3-5x) and give a full 10x increase for the Semi-Kyuubi - Ichibi transition, I fail to see that this covers someone who was as strong as you before the increase getting, what, a hundred times bigger suddenly? And then proceeding to get stronger yet? I mean, Gamabunta is Kage level to begin with. He's the personal summon of a Sannin, and even that Sannin has trouble with him. Shukaku was stronger than he is, by a decent margin. You couldn't consider Naruto Sannin level before the third tail (maybe second could compare to Tsunade?). Before the fourth, Orochimaru was not particularly impressed. The fact that the Yonbi was considered exceptional next to anything like Shukaku, and Kisame beat that on his own and (despite having a hard time) came out feeling "a little tired" is astounding itself, let alone that it's three tails beyond that.