|
(20) Super Saiyan 2
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,474
|
Re: Orochimaru squad vs. Kisame
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
Because it would have worked against literally anyone else in the world with the probable exception of Madara. The fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other - a more accurate way of gauging overall ability would be how they generally would compare to everyone else on average, or maybe better, someone who doesn't really have any noteworthy advantages or disadvantages against either of them, basically measuring their abilities on a neutral basis. And yeah, you can pull your punches with genjutsu if you just dumb it down, especially if it can normally kill someone. Itachi can control what his opponent sees and feels, so there's no reason he wouldn't be able to "pull his punches" in a genjutsu. That doesn't really matter, though, since genjutsu was useless against Sasuke. I did considered going all out not just toying with him using genjutsu, though, especially considering he was just..lounging around on his throne. I mean, so did Zetsu, apparently.
|
Well the fact is, Sasuke was pwning him in their little Genjutsu war early on. Sasuke was always one step ahead of him, regardless of whether he was trying hard or not, it doesn’t make Itachi look good at all, quite the opposite. Even Sasuke didn’t look like he was going all out early on either… it was only after he removed his cloak, that you get the idea, that the feeling out process is finished and both of them were ready to take the battle more seriously. Zetsu couldn’t see Itachi “lounging around his throne”, since that was part of the genjutsu.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
It wasn't so much arrogance as much as it was ignorance, ignorance that he really couldn't help or can't exactly be blamed for either. By all means, it should have worked. It had never not worked, but this time it was different. Like I said, the fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other. If you look at their individual strengths, it's not the same
|
It’s a little mix of both. Itachi’s statements made him sound more arrogant though by boasting his Mangekyou Sharingan.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
Sasuke is hardly humble in attitude. And nothing suggests that this was the case. It's stated, not contradicted, retracted, questioned, or cast into doubt, therefore it stands. They were on similar levels before Sasuke absorbed his abilities. That's the message that we're given, that's what we have to work with. Next, you realizes taking Itachi's body entails having swallowed him? And again, considering his performance against Sasuke, Orochimaru certainly would have lost in any case. When is it stated he planned to kill every member of Akatsuki? He wanted them out of the way. He planned on having as many of them dead as possible, somehow. And what gives the impression that he planned on ever being able to do anything to Itachi at his current strength? He said Itachi was stronger than him. Stronger than him. He possesses more strength. His strength is greater. Superior is the strength of Itachi to him. That should resolve the issue.
|
When has he ever boasted about himself so highly? He always keeps his mind towards his priorities and if he ever has boasted of something, it is of the Uchiha clan, which he holds with high regard and honor. More so, he’s shown at one point and time that he barely even cared about himself and that killing Itachi was more important than his own life, even giving his own body to Orochimaru, if necessary. Actually, Sasuke stated that Orochimaru was weaker than him prior to absorbing his abilities. In fact, Sasuke was secretly hiding his true strength in Orochimaru’s presence, to not give him the impression that he had surpassed him. After Orochimaru and Yonbi Naruto’s fight, Kabuto lets it slip, and hints at an ulterior motive, saying Akatsuki is the true enemy. Orochimaru planned on assassinating Sasori, who is a very highly skilled Akatsuki member as we all know. He did not plan on taking his body, he planned on killing him, and he had no doubts on getting the job done. That itself shows the circumstantial differences between the intent on taking the user’s body and actually killing him. In fact, the only reason Orochimaru was able to catch Sasuke in his inner dimension, was because of the paralyzing vapors that his form released when his bodily fluids were exposed. Yes, he said he was stronger than him, but in that whole situation, he was talking about obtaining an Uchiha body. Since there were only 2 left, he said he could not take Itachi’s body because Itachi is to strong for him to do so, while Sasuke is still a kid, and the much easier option. Just because one is stronger does not automatically give them the victory over their opponent. This has been shown numerous times, whether Orochimaru vs. Sasuke at the Forest of Death, or Orochimaru vs. Yonbi Naruto. So you should stop looking at it through that perspective.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
It's been called the greatest ninjutsu in the manga. Was that written for no reason at all?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
When Deidara wasn't fighting at full strength. It doesn't reflect the full scope of his abilities. And Sasuke had massive advantages on his side. Even if he wanted to kill him badly at C4, if his strength and the way his abilities worked remained the same, but there was no elemental advantage or disadvantage on either side, he would die. And I don't see that Sasuke had many opportunities to kill Deidara at all once he went airborne. Also, he only needed to keep one of them alive, whereas the other would be a nuisance, and I don't see any reason that he would have cared which one it was as long as he could get the information he needed. And Tobi was still around, btw.
|
Eh, where was it written that? Nevertheless, it’s merely an opinion, especially for the time being.
He could’ve killed him here, here, or maybe here. But of course he cared, he cannot question what is not there. Sasuke had no idea where Tobi was after he set the mines, and his main focus was the guy trying to blow him up on his little clay bird.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
Itachi apparently knows exactly what Orochimaru's ninjutsu is and how much chakra they use, though. It's evident that Orochimaru underestimated the extent of Itachi's powers, but it stands to reason that they had at least a decent understanding of what one another could do. And, next, what are talking about? Orochimaru was speaking about Itachi being stronger than him in the context of Itachi being stronger than him. He didn't say anything like "he's stronger than my current host", or "he's stronger than me when I'm not aiming to kill, but rather only trying to perform the ritual in order to take his body as a host", he said.."He is stronger than I". And, he's not actually stronger than him if he can only win when he's not trying to excessively damage his body. But apparently he is. Because he's stated to be simply stronger.
|
On the same page, he was speaking on the subject of obtaining an Uchiha body and that Itachi’s is too far out of his league to even try. But that does not concern them in an actual fight... just read what I posted above.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
His speed was more than a match for Gai's, at 30%. And he could visually follow his movements at sixth gate, even though he couldn't respond in time. Kisame is ridiculously fast. And no, Yonbi Naruto is most certainly not stronger than Kisame. We've dealt with that, again, and again, and again...we believe the evidence.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
...
In fact, I've explained it twice in this topic. Once on the last page.
|
Not really, he moved around using the wave of water he created and he just blocked Gai’s kick with his big Samehada, that isn’t a good demonstration of speed. Visually follow? Gai went right in front of him, he didn’t even have to move his eyes. I still stand that his speed is nothing special at all…
I could probably try arguing why Yonbi Naruto is stronger than Kisame but that would be going too off subject, and I don’t want to start another big argument in this thread, where it doesn’t belong. But if you want, you could make another thread where we could argue about that. |