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Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
He did what he always did at the start. I'm not sure if you can interpret it as all out or not. But it's not as if you can pull punches in a genjutsu, am I right? It was only after Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi, that Zetsu states that "He's getting serious". And that was when he ditched the genjutsu for ninjutsu.
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Because it would have worked against literally anyone else in the world with the probable exception of Madara. The fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other - a more accurate way of gauging overall ability would be how they generally would compare to everyone else on average, or maybe better, someone who doesn't really have any noteworthy advantages or disadvantages against either of them, basically measuring their abilities on a neutral basis. And yeah, you can pull your punches with genjutsu if you just dumb it down, especially if it can normally kill someone. Itachi can control what his opponent sees and feels, so there's no reason he wouldn't be able to "pull his punches" in a genjutsu. That doesn't really matter, though, since genjutsu was useless against Sasuke. I did considered going all out not just toying with him using genjutsu, though, especially considering he was just..lounging around on his throne. I mean, so did Zetsu, apparently.
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
I guess being untouchable for so long made him arrogant. Arrogance is weakness. In a fight, it does not always apply to physical attributes, but mental as well.
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It wasn't so much arrogance as much as it was ignorance, ignorance that he really couldn't help or can't exactly be blamed for either. By all means, it should have worked. It had never not worked, but this time it was different. Like I said, the fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other. If you look at their individual strengths, it's not the same
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
Did you ever think that Sasuke could've been showing humbleness? Orochimaru saw obtaining Itachi's body as an impossible dream. But killing him, is a different story. And he was intending on doing it eventually, just like every other member from Akatsuki. Now that I think about it, Orochimaru only lost to Itachi because he was trying to obtain his body, and that left him vulnerable. If it was an actual fight to the death, the outcome wouldn't have been so highly in Itachi's favor, I can assure you.
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Sasuke is hardly humble in attitude. And nothing suggests that this was the case. It's stated, not contradicted, retracted, questioned, or cast into doubt, therefore it stands. They were on similar levels before Sasuke absorbed his abilities. That's the message that we're given, that's what we have to work with. Next, you realizes taking Itachi's body entails having swallowed him? And again, considering his performance against Sasuke, Orochimaru certainly would have lost in any case. When is it stated he planned to kill every member of Akatsuki? He wanted them out of the way. He planned on having as many of them dead as possible, somehow. And what gives the impression that he planned on
ever being able to do anything to Itachi at his current strength? He
said Itachi was stronger than him. Stronger than him. He possesses more strength. His strength is greater. Superior is the strength of Itachi to him. That should resolve the issue.
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
I'm not sure if you can call Amaterasu "The greatest ninjutsu" if it actually hurts the user.
I think Sasuke had many oppurtunities to finish Deidara off but held back, even when Deidara had many advantages, if you look back at the fight. And I don't believe Sasuke had any interest on questioning Tobi... he sliced him threw the midsection to get rid of him, after Tobi was done setting the mines, he was long gone and nowhere be seen, and as Sasuke puts it, Deidara "Likes to talk a lot".
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It's been called the greatest ninjutsu in the manga. Was that written for no reason at all?
When Deidara wasn't fighting at full strength. It doesn't reflect the full scope of his abilities. And Sasuke had massive advantages on his side. Even if he wanted to kill him badly at C4, if his strength and the way his abilities worked remained the same, but there was no elemental advantage or disadvantage on either side, he would die. And I don't see that Sasuke had many opportunities to kill Deidara at all once he went airborne. Also, he only needed to keep one of them alive, whereas the other would be a nuisance, and I don't see any reason that he would have cared which one it was as long as he could get the information he needed. And Tobi was still around, btw.
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
He has to learn them though, learning to utilize them takes time. By the looks of it, Itachi may have been a newbie member at the time. So Orochimaru not realizing his full capabilities is understandable. He spoke of him being stronger in the context of obtaining his body, not in an actual fight. And we do not see the two "fight", all we see is Orochimaru getting caught in a genjutsu. For all we know, Orochimaru could've stepped right infront of him, and attempted the ritual right away. And by the looks of it, that seemed to be the case, just like Itachi underestimated Sasuke, Oro did the same to Itachi.
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Itachi apparently knows exactly what Orochimaru's ninjutsu is and how much chakra they use, though. It's evident that Orochimaru underestimated the extent of Itachi's powers, but it stands to reason that they had at least a decent understanding of what one another could do. And, next, what are talking about? Orochimaru was speaking about Itachi being stronger than him in the context of
Itachi being stronger than him. He didn't say anything like "he's stronger than my current host", or "he's stronger than me when I'm not aiming to kill, but rather only trying to perform the ritual in order to take his body as a host", he said.."He is stronger than I". And, he's not actually stronger than him if he can only win when he's not trying to excessively damage his body. But apparently he is. Because he's stated to be simply stronger.
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Gohan
Stronger and more chakra, yes. His speed is never been proven to be extraordinary ever, especially when carrying that big sword around, he can't be that fast. We don't know if Samehada can absorb jutsus, we've only seen it eat pure chakra. Plus, if one attribute from a person dominates another's, does not necessarily count the other person out. Orochimaru was able to last against an opponent as powerful as Yonbi Naruto, much stronger than Kisame. So you should stop looking at it through that viewpoint. And I will add: Don't believe the hype, just believe what you see.
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His speed was more than a match for Gai's, at 30%. And he could visually follow his movements at sixth gate, even though he couldn't respond in time. Kisame is ridiculously fast. And no, Yonbi Naruto is most certainly not stronger than Kisame. We've dealt with that, again, and again, and again...we believe the evidence.
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In fact, I've explained it twice in this topic. Once on the last page.
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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
Orochimaru fought Yonbi Naruto, and dispite briefly holding his own, was unable to injure him, and faced the threat of being killed, clearly on the losing end of the fight. We can see from Naruto's..general interactions with him, that if he so chose, Gamabunta could probably sit on him, and whatever jutsu he was using, and crush them both to dust, and Semi-Kyuubi state only boosts him up to around Semi-Shukaku Gaara's level, whereas Gamabunta can handle the same kind of..form, only basically like, fifty times larger, before Shukaku awakens. The statistical difference between base Naruto and Semi-Kyuubi Naruto can also be measured by comparing him to Neji, who managed to fight Naruto quite evenly in this form. If the Semi-Kyuubi to Ichibi transition yields an increase anything like the base - Semi-Kyuubi transition, Gamanunta, let alone Shukaku could still...sit on him. Naruto went from barely being able to see Haku's attacks at all, to keeping up with him at Semi-Kyuubi level, so I'd think it'd have to be at least a three or four times difference for that to happen. Curse Seal Level 2 is a 10x difference from base, stated in at least two different instances that I recall. Naruto went from slightly weaker than Sasuke (Three Tomoe Sharingan, Curse Seal Level One), to even with Sasuke (Curse Seal Level Two), with the Semi-Kyuubi to Ichibi transition. So Ichibi Naruto is probably a few times stronger than Semi-Kyuubi Naruto. Similar to the base - Semi Kyuubi difference. Still, I have my severe doubts that it is akin to the difference between a Semi-Shukaku Gaara, that is still within..the general size range of a human being, to the full manifestation of Shukaku. Even if Naruto got more than three or four times stronger over the timeskip (base - semi-kyuubi difference, which would be quite significant), it's still kind of...pushing it. So, that's a good tailed form - biju comparison right? Keeping in mind Orochimaru's fight with Yonbi Naruto, Kisame beat the Yonbi Jinchuriki without visible injury. Gaara could fully manifest his bijuu pre-timeskip, and called out appendages of Shukaku to control against Deidara when they fought. Ni Yugita could fully manifest her bijuu. Yet the Yonbi Jinchuriki was still considered exceptionally powerful.
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